Hyphenation and rules for it

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prcek

Hi,

Facts
* Scribus can hyphenate text
* Scribus uses a (language dependent) dictionary for it
* Hyphenation rules in Scribus can be modified in settings by defining word lists (exception list + ignore list) and by setting minimal length of word to hyphenate (default 3 characters)

My problem:
Czech typography contains rules for hyphenation
- divide at syllable boundary (covered by dictionary)
- when a word is hyphenated no single letter + hyphen should not remain at the end of the line, with exception for narrow column (ok, without the exception it can be covered by dictionary)

- when a word is hyphenated at least three characters should be moved to the next line including the punctuation. That means some words cannot be divided when are in the middle of a sentence, but can be in case they're at the end of a sentence.

The last condition I don't know how to set up in Scribus.

For now it is not a big problem, I can check/fix it manually.
Any ideas? I guess extending hyphenation dictionary of variants with [.,:;!?] at the end is not a viable option.
--
Any job looks easy until you try doing it yourself.

a.l.e

Do other languages share the same rules?

Does any other free (or not free?) software offer better options?
LibreOffice?
Latex?

AdmFubar

Using Scribus1.6.1, 1.7.0 openSUSE 15.6
Advanced hobbyist

prcek

Quote from: AdmFubar on September 18, 2025, 06:48:49 PMLibreOffice does offer a Czech dictionary with hyphenation.
see, https://extensions.libreoffice.org/en/extensions/show/czech-dictionaries

I'm aware of this hyphenation dictionary and I believe I'm using it. Hyphenation works.

My question was for a rule that is not covered by dictionary directly. I wouldn't call it a corner case although I believe it is rather difficult to implement.

Quote from: a.l.e on September 18, 2025, 03:33:26 PMDo other languages share the same rules?

I have no idea. (Does anyone else?) And to be fair I've noticed this rule is often broken in Czech texts.

Quote from: a.l.e on September 18, 2025, 03:33:26 PMDoes any other free (or not free?) software offer better options?
LibreOffice?

No (tested)

Quote from: a.l.e on September 18, 2025, 03:33:26 PMLatex?

Don't know have to play with it a bit, (re)gain some knowledge to test it.
--
Any job looks easy until you try doing it yourself.

AdmFubar

Using Scribus1.6.1, 1.7.0 openSUSE 15.6
Advanced hobbyist

a.l.e

I've made a web search for "Czech hyphenation" and the best hits where "papers" for Latex.

But from what I could get by skimming through them is rather that the Czech hyphenation patterns are complex.

I could not find any mention of special rules being taken into account for a minimal number of characters to be kept on the current line or moved to the next one.

This having been said, it should not be hard to define rules for the hyphenation, as there are for widows and orphans (with a checkbox for taking into account the punctuation).

And I can think that the rule not to leave a single letter at the end of the line is something that you would want in many languages.
Probably, the same is valid for having less than two non-blanks at the start of the line.

utnik might know more about the German rules : - )

But, since Scribus widows and orphans control does not really work, I would not give you too many hopes that this will be implemented soon.
Nonetheless, at the end of this thread, it might be a good idea to open a ticket in the bug tracker with the findings and make a proposal for changes in Scribus.

utnik

Quote from: a.l.e on September 20, 2025, 10:32:46 AM...utnik might know more about the German rules : - )

german hyphenation rules are not that complicated. (afaik there are no punctuation related rules...)
a bit a special case is the letter 'ß'. originally it was a ligature of 's' and 'z'. but now while it is used in germany, in swiss german it is replaced by 'ss' (i. e. 'straße' in de-de and 'strasse' in de-ch) and the hyphenation is 'stra-ße' and 'stras-se' (in capital letters there was traditionally no 'ß' and the hyphenation was 'STRAS-SE' like in de-ch. since a couple of years there is a capital 'ß' and the two variants are correct – but not 'STRA-SSE'...)
i don't know if there is a 'ß' in austria.

utnik

a.l.e

One of the words that came to mind is

asymptomatisch.png

The long first syllable might be a sign that German does not want that a all alone at the end of a line...

But there might be other rules that come into play here.

In Italian it is

a-sin-to-ma-ti-co

but i still don't think that this is something one would want to have:

La malattia ebbe un decorso a-
sintomatico e il paziente non
...

prcek

Quote from: utnik on September 21, 2025, 09:46:53 AMi don't know if there is a 'ß' in austria.

utnik

Yes, it is there.


Quote from: a.l.e on September 20, 2025, 10:32:46 AMI've made a web search for "Czech hyphenation" and the best hits where "papers" for Latex.

But from what I could get by skimming through them is rather that the Czech hyphenation patterns are complex.

I could not find any mention of special rules being taken into account for a minimal number of characters to be kept on the current line or moved to the next one.

This having been said, it should not be hard to define rules for the hyphenation, as there are for widows and orphans (with a checkbox for taking into account the punctuation).

And I can think that the rule not to leave a single letter at the end of the line is something that you would want in many languages.
Probably, the same is valid for having less than two non-blanks at the start of the line.

utnik might know more about the German rules : - )

But, since Scribus widows and orphans control does not really work, I would not give you too many hopes that this will be implemented soon.
Nonetheless, at the end of this thread, it might be a good idea to open a ticket in the bug tracker with the findings and make a proposal for changes in Scribus.


Thank you, I will add "check it and create a ticket with explanation" to my ToDo list.
--
Any job looks easy until you try doing it yourself.

AdmFubar

Squints hard at the word "austria"  still cannot see 'ß' in it..

You must have magical eyeballs.  :o :D
Using Scribus1.6.1, 1.7.0 openSUSE 15.6
Advanced hobbyist

a.l.e

That's one of the hard things with German: what is right, might depend on the country.

There's a 'ß' in Germany, but many don't know its correct usage.

For the Swiss, it might seem obvious where it could be, but no, there's no 'ß' there...

As you noticed, the case of Austria is also tricky:
The ß is required there, but - of course - the s is not always an ß. You need to write it twice, to have a chance that it gets to an ß, and even then, it's not always the case.

Glad I could help.
Your Donaudampfschiffahrtßgesellschaftskapitän

prcek

German "s" usage made me curious, so I've asked chatgpt.

In German language does a word containing "s" "ss" and "ß" at once exist?

It did come with Fußgängerpassstraße which does not exists.

Is there such word that is in use, or at least near to real usage?

Thought for 38s
Short answer: Yes — such words do exist in everyday use, most often as compounds (especially street names).

and it did come with Flussstraße (in Austria :-)

Sorry for OT
--
Any job looks easy until you try doing it yourself.