Master Pages / Scrapbook

[jgollenz]

Hi all, newbie here.

I'm using Scribus to layout a herbarium-style book, double-page layout with a picture of the herb on the left (with name + latin name) and info about it on the right page.

Today I started looking into master pages to save me some time (100+ herbs). With shock I learned that master pages are not what I expected from how I used them in PowerPoint ages ago. I started searching and found several threads where people suggest using the features of the scapbook instead. It leaves me with two questions:

1. Why? People call editable text frames in master pages a gate to hell. Clearly I don't understand the ramifications. Please enlighten me. All I want is a text frame at the same spot on every page to hold a changeable title.

2. I read about symbols and they, when used with the scrapbook, 'seem' to enable what I'm trying to achieve. I lay out my text frames as I desire, then I select them all (as I can't convert a group to a symbol) and convert them to a symbol. Now in the symbol editor I can change the layout (although it appears to be extremely easy to permanently break it this way) and it is applied to all instances of the symbol throughout the document. Am I doing this correct? (edit: probably not. I can't edit the textframes individually after turning them into symbols)

Thanks in advance for your answers

[PatJr]

not what you want
maybe try and setup two master pages left/right and put guides on each for your standard layout
then you can use snap to guides to quickly add a text or image frame where you want them

--- just found the shift-click feature, way faster then dragging a frame

[jgollenz]

@PatJr what I'd like to avoid is fixing every page after a layout change. The workflow you describe results in the following:

1. Decide on a layout
2. Add 100+ text-frames
3. Change the layout
4. Adjust 100+ text-frames

When I have to live with step 2, then at least I'd like to do away with step 4.

[a.l.e]

some answers

1. people want a text frame at the same spot on every page... except on those five pages. and then they change their mind and want it again on one of those five pages. it's not managing the editable text on a master page that is hell, it's managing the exceptions. and the exceptions to the exceptions.

2. if you're stuck with using the symbols (which is a simplified version of what you suggest should be easy in 1.), i wonder how you could master customizable master page items : - )

2b. (the constructive part) if you just want to have titles with the same style at the same place on the page, the simple solution is probably
- to have guides in the master page to delimit the area where the titles will be (if they are always in the same spot) or add a frame with a dummy title to the scrapbook (not to the symbols) if they can be anywhere on the page.
- if you're using the guides, you might want to learn about shift-click to create a frame that fills the guides around it...
- then define a paragraph style for the titles (so that all titles will have the same formatting)

but much depends on your specific needs...

people want one single tool that solves all their problems, and it has to be flexible so that it really 100% fits their vision of the solution; and it must be simple to use...
that's our nature : - )
and if one tries to deliver that mix, the result will be hell... or powerpoint...

[Nermander]

Master pages in Scribus are "page backgrounds". Take it or leave it.

In the Scrapbook you can have single objects or groups of objects, they can be either dragged onto the page (you choose placement) or you can double-click the entry to have the object(s) inserted on the page at the same position they had when they were sent to the scrapbook.

The double-clicking on scrapbook items is what most people do not figure out, and this is what would make it easy for you to get a frame in the same position on every page.

[PatJr]

The double-clicking on scrapbook items is what most people do not figure out, and this is what would make it easy for you to get a frame in the same position on every page.

wow, hot tip
Thanks
that's why you have to hang out in this forum and read these posts, sribus gets deeper every day

[jgollenz]

some answers

1. people want a text frame at the same spot on every page... except on those five pages. and then they change their mind and want it again on one of those five pages. it's not managing the editable text on a master page that is hell, it's managing the exceptions. and the exceptions to the exceptions.

2. if you're stuck with using the symbols (which is a simplified version of what you suggest should be easy in 1.), i wonder how you could master customizable master page items : - )

2b. (the constructive part) if you just want to have titles with the same style at the same place on the page, the simple solution is probably
- to have guides in the master page to delimit the area where the titles will be (if they are always in the same spot) or add a frame with a dummy title to the scrapbook (not to the symbols) if they can be anywhere on the page.
- if you're using the guides, you might want to learn about shift-click to create a frame that fills the guides around it...
- then define a paragraph style for the titles (so that all titles will have the same formatting)

but much depends on your specific needs...

people want one single tool that solves all their problems, and it has to be flexible so that it really 100% fits their vision of the solution; and it must be simple to use...
that's our nature : - )
and if one tries to deliver that mix, the result will be hell... or powerpoint...

Thanks for the answer!

1. So? Those five pages don't derive from the master page then.
2. I don't really understand your point. The master page IS A page. The very thing I want to lay out. On the other hand, the symbol can be many things. How is it simpler?
2b. That sounds like an improvement, I will try it. However, it still does not provide the 'change it once, change it everywhere' flexibility, or does it? If I change the guides in the master page, I have to adjust all textframes afterwards, correct?

Well, that may be. It just makes me wonder, do I have vastly different expectations of what Scribus actually is? Do people lay out books like the one I'm describing with Scribus? For me it very much is the (mundane!) effort of having to do changes in 100+ places just to stay consistent that makes me not wanting to continue with the project. Are 100+ page projects uncommon for Scribus? Most tutorials I found do feature newspapers as their prime example. I wouldn't mind doing this for ~15 pages (as much), but doing it for that many pages is just such a drag, how could anyone stand that? I've seen that Scribus offers scripting features, would that address my issues?

I hope I don't come across as offensive. I'm really trying to understand what I'm doing wrong / where my misconceptions lie.

[jgollenz]

Master pages in Scribus are "page backgrounds". Take it or leave it.

In the Scrapbook you can have single objects or groups of objects, they can be either dragged onto the page (you choose placement) or you can double-click the entry to have the object(s) inserted on the page at the same position they had when they were sent to the scrapbook.

The double-clicking on scrapbook items is what most people do not figure out, and this is what would make it easy for you to get a frame in the same position on every page.

I understand your frustration with my question, as many people have asked this in the past. But like I said, I didn't find any reasons 'why' things are as they are as opposed to how many beginners would expect them to work. If you could shed some light on this I would be very thankful.

---

In response to your proposed solution: let's call the amount of pages 'P' and the amount of changes 'C'.

Inserting from the scrapbook at the same position would indeed speed up the process. Let's put aside, that this still amounts to P insertions, when it really could be done with a single insertion.

Now, after having inserted them, my initial design changes. This is not something unusual, this happens all the time. Requirements change. The designs of newspapers change. Design is (at least for me and every person I ever talked about it) an iterative process. In fact I will argue, that this is where the actual fun of design lives: trying things out, see what works and what doesn't.

Having said that, the solution you describe will result in a P*C effort. This does not scale well for me (or anyone really). It simply kills the aforementioned fun. I just cannot imagine that anyone is willing to do this for a couple of hundred pages.  Let's disregard C, I assume it's a large number due to the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph. This only leaves me with fixing P to mitigate the effort explosion. Hence my conclusion: Scribus was not designed for doing the layout of a project with large P.

What would you do if you had to do what I'm trying to do? Would you sit there and do the P*C things to get the design just right? I highly doubt that, you surely have better things to do with your time (and rightfully so!).

Again, I don't want to be rude, I merely want to understand the reasoning in not providing such functionality. There must be a good reason that I just don't see due to my ignorance.

[Nermander]

If you are not satisfied with the features Scribus provides, I suggest you ask for the money back and use another program instead.

Scribus is FOSS, and also probably like 5-10 generations behind the commercial alternatives. The choice is yours, if you value your time, maybe it is worth the money to instead pay for InDesign?

Having master pages that works the way they do in InDesign is very complex, because you need to keep track of what objects are still having the inherited properties from the master page, and what objects have been edited to such extent that they should no longer change when the master page is changed? Some objects maybe still inherit some properties from the master page, but have other properties that should not change when the master page is changed.