Scribus Webpage

[tim_occ]

Hi Guys,

you both have really good arguments. Maybe I can share my point of view with you too.

As I'm was a Scribus beginner it was really hard for me to get an orientation about all the stuff (documentation, tutorials, resources, etc). Why? Because of all these informations are really decentralized. In example: all the important infos can be find in the wiki, but every new user would start to read about Scribus on the web page, because it is the normal way to get informations.

So I agree totally with Garry, that we need a new central place for all users to start, to find help or to show their work.
Lets say the webpage will be like this, than we will have a lot of pages for tutorials, news, download section for templates? and perhaps the manual. I think to have all the content in plain htrml and css it was a way in the end of 90' to write all into single files. If there will be just few static infomations it will be easier to have just few html pages.

Let's say we do it like in the first option, I have few questions:
- How can we easily update the design? -> because of trends and new technologies, etc without updating any single files and maybe manage complications with that.
- How can people write/contribute Tutorials with a low knowledge of webdevelopment?
- How can people present their work on the webpage without managing the whole github stuff at first on the local device.

Let's list some facts:
- there is already a wordpress installation on the webserver
- there is already content on the webpage
- we will need some security layer for publishing content. (On github it needs some admins which review all the stuff -> wordpress is much more handy)

I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel if it is not necessary. And currently we can try out more possibilities of the given system. So, I think we should stay on wordpress. The template itself can be located on github that everyone can improve it. If we use just github or wordpress we will need in any case in minimum of one responsable guy!

I can imagine to have the new website on wordpress with a static template in a first interation. Later we can make it more dynamic for parts of the webpage which are havyly updated a lot by non-techy guys, like for Showcases, tutorials, manuals, news, etc. A possibility for an auto deployment of the template via github can help a lot.

However, if someone should use it in long term it must be easy.


regards,
Martin

[a.l.e]

i'm with you martin.
(even if i would love a flat file cms / static site generator)

just one difference: we should also make a proposal for the editorial workflow (and suggest which plugin could be installed to achieve the goal).

i fear that, it will be much harder to have such a workflow to be implemented after the fact.

[GarryP]

As long as the content is easily updatable by users and the overall site administration is not dependant on just one person then that's fine with me. I've never used Wordpress so I don't know how it's administered or maintained but if it works well then I would have no problem with that. I've not used many CMSes but if some kind of good solution can be found then I would be okay with that too.

I really don't care which technologies will be used. It won't be me that installs and maintains them and it won't be me that will be responsible for the content so I don't expect to have much of a say in the matter.

I feel that the Scribus project is getting to a point where it should be getting ready for a "relaunch":
* The forum has a slow and steady turnover but the software used needs to be changed to bring it into the 21st century.
* The wiki has been useful to some people but the good information is lost within a jumble of old/irrelevant/incorrect stuff and stub pages.
* The main site is, quite frankly, awful. You've just got to look at any site for any other major open source project to see just how awful it is. Simply awful.
* The stable branch of the software has not had any updates for over 18 months - basically it's been left for dead.

Anyone coming to Scribus for the first time must be asking themselves: "Is this thing still going or have people just forgotten to switch it off?"

Software that hasn't changed for over a year and a half, a wiki where the official tutorial was written 13 years ago, and a main website that looks like it was created for a wallpaper manufacturer who doesn't really know about this "newfangled inter-web thing". It's all just wrong.

Scribus has so much to offer but a lot of people coming to see what it's about will take one look at the outdated sites and decide that they'll just stick with what they've got or just not bother.

I'm not saying any of this to hurt anyone that has been involved in the project. A lot of people have done a lot of great work that I'm personally grateful for. I'm saying what I'm saying to try and "kick the project up the ar*e" so it gets in people's faces and starts to show everyone what it's capable of instead of just withering away in some darkened corner.

Scribus could be as well known as the commercial software. Scribus could be installed on more machines than the commercial software. Scribus could be the go-to default DTP application of choice. If it really wants to be. Or it could just continue how it's been going for the last couple of years and eventually die because everyone has gone elsewhere.

Scribus is a great product. Scribus should show the world that it is a great product. If it doesn't then a great product will fall, and that would be a real shame.

[a.l.e]

hi garry,

i think you're right in most if not all the points you're pointing to.

my stance: if we want things to change, we have to propose new, solid, workflows that can be accepted by the guy in charge.

the problem is not starting well, the problem is making sure that the site is well implemented *and* well managed afterwards.

yes, the current wordpress would already allow all the things we, you, myself, are proposing, but the keys are in the hand of one single person (or a couple).
there is no reason to believe that changing the theme and proposing a new structure will help in any away against the proposal being badly implemented and the community having no way to improve it afterwards.

at least, i have to believe that this is what happened the last time the site has been completely reworked... and that was -- if i recall correctly -- not much than two years ago!
(or, better said, this is what i perceived)

one more thing: i think that the "main" website should contain the minimal content that is necessary to present scribus, get new users teased and started. and get all users informed.
documentation, forums and co, should be well linked, but kept "out" of the website.

let's solve one problem at a time: right now, we want a new website.
next time we will want more timely releases : - )

i'll step back from the discussion now, i have already said too much.
but i'm there to help out to do some work.
... i have some experience with wordpress... (i manage three sites with it... and i have wrote a dozen of small plugins for one of them)

[GarryP]

I absolutely agree about solving one problem at a time. My only caveat is that one eye should be kept on the bigger picture, which is why I wanted to put things in context - or at least the context that I see them in.

I don't have a problem with having multiple places/sites for Scribus information but I think it would make it easier for people to be able to create and update material if all of those places had a single login and worked the same way. Whether that's Wordpress or anything else I really don't mind. If it's something I've never used before and I want to use it then I'll learn, but I only want to have to learn it once.

If whatever is chosen can accommodate all the things that are needed from it - from a whole-scale Scribus perspective - then that's great.

[Nermander]

As I'm was a Scribus beginner it was really hard for me to get an orientation about all the stuff (documentation, tutorials, resources, etc).

What resources did you need other than then built in help?

I am asking because in my experience, most users who do not understand how to use Scribus have never before used a page layout program. I do not think it is the task of the Scribus community to teach people DTP.

If you compare Scribus to for example GIMP, Inkscape or Open/Libre Office, do your really think it is harder to find the resources for Scribus than those other programs? I beg to differ, becuase those other programs are more widespread which means there are even more resources spread out all over the web (and even books).

[GarryP]

Not all Scribus installations come with the built-in help manual. As far as I remember, it's something to do with licensing on Linux. I've just checked this on Mint Cinnamon 18.1 (Scribus 1.4.6) and going into the Manual gets you the attached result.

The built-in manual is a very useful resource and normally explains things well but if it's not available to everyone then lots of people will be missing out on some very important basic information.

I'm also curious as to what you think the Scribus community is here to do. Surely the people on the forum can teach people whatever they want to teach? If Person A wants to know something and Person B wants to teach them then what's the problem with that?

Personally I generally don't bother answering questions from people who have clearly not even bothered to even go through the basics of the tutorial but that's just me. That doesn't stop someone else from helping if they want to.

Page layout, and DTP more generally, is something that most people have not had to do before they try Scribus and it can be a bit scary, when you start to look at it, how much stuff you have to learn. Baseline grids, optical margins, font embedding, DPI, ligatures, the list goes on. Most of the time when you're learning you don't even know what the things are called so you can't search for them - in the manual or elsewhere. If you can't search for something then you need help and that's where the forum can come in.

If no-one wants to answer a question then that's unfortunate for the user who needs help but no-one is forcing people to answer and the user that needs help should acknowledge this. Free help on DTP issues is not a basic human right, but people can always ask.

To slide the argument sideways a little, GIMP is often used for photo retouching. Should people in the GIMP forums not teach people about use of colour, or brush techniques, or lighting, or layering, or any of the other things that someone needs to know because they are "too basic"? That doesn't sound right to me.

Beginners, by definition, don't know how to do things. It's beginners that need the help. Everything that you or I know is something that we had to learn. No-one is born with an innate knowledge of DTP any more than we are born knowing that fire can be dangerous. Everyone has to start from the beginning with everything. If people can't be bothered to put in a tiny amount of effort to learn some of the basics for themselves then just ignore them, but people should not be ignored just because they are a beginner.

The Scribus community has no "task" or responsibility to anyone. The individuals in the community can answer whatever questions they want to and can also ignore any questions they don't want to answer. Neither the community nor the individual people in it have any obligation to do anything. If you personally don't want to answer a question then just ignore it and move onto something else.

If the Scribus community isn't here to teach DTP to people who use Scribus - a DTP application - then what's it for?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[tim_occ]

@Nermander,

I had already years of knowledge in Indesign and DPT workflows before I'm started to using Scribus. That is not the point.

In case of Scribus you need your time to figure out where to start (not the software itself). At first I'm trying to help myself and make researches. But often you loose time, and if you are just searching for informations or a new tool which you want to use and you have to figure out where all of these important infos are, it is a no-go in my opinion.

Here some examples:
1. On webpage are no hints about the features of Scribus. As well in the wiki it is hard to find
2. On webpage (contact and support): there is nothing about support
3. On webpage there is no link to the forum (you have to google for it or you have to go to the wiki)
4. In my understanding wiki != manual, so there is no hint about the documentation of the features on webpage
5. Wiki homepage looks like the main resource because of all the cross-links in the header (Scribus Home, Download, Help, Manual, Forums, Bugs, Blog, About) -> At this moment I realized that I should use the wiki instead of finding something on the webpage
6. "Contribute" page on web page is a mess, it explains what you can do, but not how to or you have to search for it (https://www.scribus.net/contribute/)
7. Contribute section in Wiki is well invisible: You have to got to the menu on left side (Development: https://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Category:Development) and have to find the right topics in the overview.
8. Navigation through the wiki is a mess: In case of english language it is kind of "OK", but try to start on a localized home page, in this case you can't use the menu on left side
9. On webpage click on download -> Windows, why there are mac DMG's and other packages, are the packages for windows too?

Over all, you have so many dead ends in navigation - that is frustrating and is taking your life time.

That is why we have this thread now.

In case of resources/tutorials I agree, there a much lesser than e.g. for Blender. But we have the possibility to built a good infrastructure that people are motivated to create new tutorials.

regards,
Martin

[Nermander]

Here some examples:

So, what is your answer to my second question?

If you compare Scribus to for example GIMP, Inkscape or Open/Libre Office, do your really think it is harder to find the resources for Scribus than those other programs?

[tim_occ]

Hi Nermander,

I think to anwser your question I have to separate the different things.

Manual
- for manual it is not much harder to find it than manuals of Blender or Gimp
Easy to find via in-built manual, but just the english version (in my case I have no installed manual, just a web link in to the wiki)
Scribus: http://docs.scribus.net
Gimp: https://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/index.html (no installed manual, but possibility to open a web version)
Blender: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/ (just web link via "Help" menu)

Tutorials
- in case of tutorials it is much harder to find -> I think that is because of a smaller community than Blender or Gimp
Scribus: http://forums.scribus.net/index.php/board,11.0.html (BTW: if I search for "scribus tutorials" I can't find this forum section in my search engine) -> I have to know that there is a forum, have in mind it is not linked on scribus.net

Contribute
- in case of contribute to Scribus it is much harder as well -> I described some of the issues above
Scribus: https://www.scribus.net/contribute/ -> Overview (no links to subtopics)
Gimp: https://www.gimp.org/develop/ -> Overview + links in specific subtopics
Blender: https://www.blender.org/get-involved/ -> Overview + links in specific subtopics
Krita: https://krita.org/en/get-involved/overview/ -> Overview + links in specific subtopics



So, yes in case of a documentation it is like the others.
In case of contribution or tutorials it is not very easy.

For sure it takes time to learn a new software application, but it can be much easier. Maybe I come from a different perspective with a bigger focus on contribution.

[Nermander]

Maybe you come from a perspective where people contribute themselves instead of asking others to do things?

[tim_occ]

Yes, but just for topics which I'm interested in.

[joesber]

Hi guys,

it is the first time I see this web proposal http://scribus.martinreininger.de/index.html and I just would like to congratulate your work, tim_occ and Garry. I hope to see it officially working soon! 

About the finantial donation, I'm thinking about it since long ago, and it was searching about the topic that I found this post about the new web proposal. I think it would be great to have the option of donating money to support Scribus, specially for people without enough knowledge or time (or both), who anyway would like to help the develope of this tool.

[GarryP]

Many thanks. I'm glad you like the proposed site.

Unfortunately, I can't see anything changing website-wise in the near-to-medium-term future.

From what I've read in this and other threads, the people responsible for the scribus.net site have no plans or incentives to make any changes.

The proposed site has been around for nearly a year but no-one responsible for the official site has been in touch to give any kind of feedback. There's a chance that they simply don't know about it but...

I really don't want to get into the whole discussion again - as it doesn't go anywhere - but it's worth people knowing this so they don't get their hopes up.

If changes happen then that would be great but don't expect anything.

[a.l.e]

seeing this good proposal die out makes me sad.

as i already proposed, if the scribus team does not want to use it, i would be glad to use it for creating a user community site under http://impagina.org .

in march i've posted a formal request in the bug tracker to use this template

https://bugs.scribus.net/view.php?id=15223

it has somehow been acknowledged (and moved to the infrastructure part of the bug tracker) but no real reaction or comments.

would anybody be interested on setting up the site with me?

ciao
a.l.e