Author Topic: Master pages and text frames  (Read 4804 times)

hifi25nl

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Master pages and text frames
« on: September 23, 2015, 04:37:22 pm »
Hello,
I am testing Scribus-svn in Archlinux (version 1.5.1) and I have some problems with master pages.
I have made some Master Pages with 3 empty text frames inside, but when I try to apply the Master Page to my document the result has only one text frame with a little difference in size (see pages 4-5)

I want to be sure if this a a problem of development version or I'm making some big mistake....


utnik

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2015, 07:44:16 pm »
hi hifi25nl (strange nick)

whe i open your file i see all the frames from the masterpages and an automatic text frame (the only useful one) – don't know what you're missing…
but why do you put empty frames on your masterpages? you cann't use them on the document pages! (either you put some content in while editing the masterpages or these frames are useless.)

utnik

hifi25nl

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 08:06:11 pm »
Maybe I need some tutorial first.
I want to create a book template 5"x8" (a novel) for Amazon createspace.
Until now I have used a Libreoffice template, but I have not found a Scribus template.

Can you suggest me where to start, a link or a similar template?

utnik

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 08:37:40 pm »
hi hifi25nl

there are lots of templates out in the depths of the world wide web.
hier is a big collection –  but i doubt that you find, what you're looking for…

you may find it useful to look at one or two of them a bit closer, to see how they are built – and create your own after that (or edit one that is close enough…)

if you come from a text editor like lo writer, scribus will need a bit of learning time.
i suggest to search for tutorials about master pages, paragraph- and characterstyles – and check the meaning of all the entries of the 'properties' window.

good luck
utnik

Nermander

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2015, 09:46:37 am »
Master Pages really should be renamed... Page backgrounds would be a more suitable name.

Most times when new users try to use Master Pages they would be better off using the scrapbook.

I think the scrapbook could be extended to include a "page template editor" (more or less a way to edit an item in the scrapbook). To most people it doesn't make sens to design a page template on a regular page and then send it to the scrapbook to make a template out of it.

Maybe the scrapbook should be split into two functions: Page templates and Scrapbook. Essentially just the same function accessible under two different names (and two different locations to store the content).

a.l.e

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2015, 12:37:38 pm »
hi nermander

interesting topic, here!

if i read the description adobe gives for the master pages for indesign, i would say that the name used in scribus is not that bad.

of course, the big difference is that indesign allows to put in there empty frames, that can then be filled on the "real" page. (and other edit features)

instead of renaming the scribus master pages to page backgrounds (it does not look like a better name to me...), i think that scribus should make its master pages more usable by making it clear how to define editable items attached to a master page.
(if possible, avoiding the way ID does... in my eyes, editable content on the master page is a door to hell and brings in lot complexity both in the code and in the workflows)

there are a few issues with the master pages and i believe that with a few "small" changes (most of all making it more clear that you got into master pages modus (and how to get out of it) and getting ridden of the current left / right definition and make it automatic!) it can get much better!

there are also a few additions needed to help make the master pages have all the features the user would expect (without implementing them in the same way ID does). creating a link between the master page and some of the scrapbook items might one way to go! we probably also need frame styles.

btw, it is to be noted that scribus 1.5 already has scrapbook elements that can be kept in sync with the original (and being further editable). it's a beginning.

it would be nice to see a few people sitting together and writing a specification for more dynamic master pages.
i've added it to my personal list of possible projects for scribus, so my notes do no get lost :-)

if we can improve the master pages, we would be able to say: yes, you can do that, but in a different way, rather than having to say: no, but you can hack your way around it if you do this and that :-)

Nermander

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 01:13:00 pm »
in my eyes, editable content on the master page is a door to hell and brings in lot complexity both in the code and in the workflows)

That's why I think it would be better to use "page templates" from the Scrapbook to place editable content on pages.

The problem with the way Indesign does it is that you can for example move an object that is on the master page. When it has been moved, changing the location on the master page will not move the object on the page, but changing the color of the object on the master page will change the color of the object on the page.

Adobe describes this as a feature, but I'm not sure it is:) In my eyes it just makes things overly complicated. When looking at a page I cannot know what objects will be affected if I change the master page, since I can not see what objects have been "changed" after application of the master page.

And what happends if I change the master page applied to a page? I guess all edits I made will be lost? Or will they remain on the page and only those elements that had not been edited will change?

a.l.e

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 02:34:01 pm »
i didn't want to post the link... but, well, let's make an exception:

https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/master-pages.html

reading this description (no, i won't copy paste it into the scribus forum :-), i don't see why scribus should use a different name for almost the same feature.
currently, scribus does not fit the full description, but the differences are in two small sentences... and once the changes i was suggesting are implemented (yes, i'm a dreamer!), we will have a different way of doing but the same feature.
easier and simpler to use!
:-)

Nermander

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 09:40:49 am »
The point I am trying to make is that I think Indesigns implementation of Master Pages is not a good one. Or more specifically, it's the "override" part that I think is problematic.

Inserting a pre-defined set of frames onto a page is what most people are having problems with when it comes to Scribus Master pages. In Scribus that is best done using the scrapbook, using Master Pages for it does not work (while it does in Indesign).

a.l.e

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Re: Master pages and text frames
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2015, 11:58:37 am »
hey nermander,

i fully agree with your point of view on the way ID implements the master pages!
and if i understand it correctly the team also agrees with it!

i just don't think that scribus should change the name for its master pages, since in the long term we have set the goal to provide the same functionality as in ID, but in a better way: without all that overriding mechanism.
exactly as you are describing.

inventing a new name for what at the end will be the same feature does not seam a good idea to me...

btw, some improvements have already been suggested, other even already implemented:
- as you suggest, it should be made easy to bind MP and scrapbook elements.
- Scribus 1.5svn already has "Symbols" which are scrapbook items that are linked to the original.

more improvements will follow for sure!

and we will also have full featured master pages, just in a much saner way!