Author Topic: Confusion about document pre-set margins  (Read 5976 times)

bigal

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Confusion about document pre-set margins
« on: July 15, 2013, 02:41:57 pm »
Hi all,

I have got myself completely befuddled so am asking if someone can please clarify what is going on.

System Windows XP Pro SP 3
Printer Canon CLC3200

Scribus v 1.4.2
Scribus preferences are all more or less at their defaults apart from using A4 page size and metric units. The default Pre-set layout is 'None' and the four sides are  each set to 14.111mm.

Problem
There seems to be very little written about the Pre-set layouts available in Scribus>File>preferences>Document, 'Gutenberg', 'Magazine', 'Fibonacci', 'Golden Mean' and 'Nine Parts', but it seems that there is nothing to them apart from a variety of different borders. Or are they called margins? No matter what they are called I am still puzzled. What is their origin, why are they needed etc?

On my machine as installed, Scribus has a pre-set layout of 'None' At this setting all four sides of a multi page document are set to 14.111mm. If I check the other Pre-set layouts each produces a different set of borders/margins. But the 'Inside' setting is always adjustable while the rest are greyed out. What is more, if I then return to the 'None' selection the  borders/margins settings are different from when I started off. To complicate matters even further, If I now recheck the Pre-Set layouts all of their settings have altered as well. If I change any of the 'Inside' settings all of the other greyed out settings change as well. There is obviously a relationship but what is it. Where is it explained.

What is worse is now, if I revert to the 'None' layout again all the settings there have changed again. There does not seem to be any consistency, or sense in any of this. Can someone explain, clearly for a novice please, what is going on? I am totally baffled.

Cheers

Alan
Absolute space exits no longer; there is only space relative to a certain initial position of the body. (Henri Poncaire. 1854-1912)

GarryP

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 05:30:03 pm »
Hi Alan.

I'm not sure how much detail you want to get into but I can give you a simple explanation that'll probably let you get on with doing what you need to do.

The different pre-set layouts are just different ways of setting margins according to various visual "themes". For instance, the "Gutenberg" pre-sets are supposed to - in a way - show how the page would have been setup if Gutenberg himself was using Scribus (or something like that anyway). The other presets have similar effects.

You can only change the "Inside" setting - when using a preset - because all of the other settings depend on an equation that uses the "Inside" measurement as its starting point.

When you switch back to "None" - after applying a pre-set - it shouldn't switch back to what "None" was, it should just let you change the other settings. "None" isn't a pre-set, it's just telling Scribus not to use a pre-set. (However, if you go back to "None" after selecting a preset and not applying it Scribus will go back to the "None" settings. It's a bit odd but it's like a sort of "cancel my selecting a pre-set" thing.)

This can - as you say - be a bit confusing so, personally, I'd advise not using the pre-sets. Just manually set the page up as you need it for your work and forget about them.

Or, more generally, if you have no need for special margin settings - i.e. if you're just creating PDFs that aren't necessarily being printed, or something like that - just accept the defaults and carry on as though the margins etc. don't exist.

While margins etc. can be important - depending on your needs/circumstances - I'd say that, in general, if you don't have a problem with the defaults then don't worry about them. Just get on with learning all of the other good stuff Scribus has to offer. You can always change the margins later if needed.

I hope this has helped in some small way.

Garry.

bigal

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 07:46:56 pm »
 Hi Garry,

Thank you so much not only for 'clearing the fog' but for doing it in such a clear way. I had guessed that there was some kind of relationship between the 'Inner' and the rest of the margins as I noted in my post but the rest was just a fog. Now I can see through the fog and move on.

My only comment would be a plea for a little bit more help in the documentation, ideally along the lines of your comments. I had searched through as well as on the web but could find nothing constructive at all.

I must add that I like your signature. I have read some of Henri Poncaire's work and mostly found it rather confusing; my maths is nowhere near his standard, but never the less there are some gems such as the one you have pointed out.

Cheers

Alan
Absolute space exits no longer; there is only space relative to a certain initial position of the body. (Henri Poncaire. 1854-1912)

GarryP

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 10:20:21 pm »
You're welcome Alan.

I'm not sure if you've looked - and even if you have it may be useful to anyone else reading this - but if you go to the Scribus Manual (menu "Help -> Scribus Manual…") and search for "preset", under the "Configuring Scribus" section there's a little bit about the preset layouts - with pictures. However, it doesn't really explain how Scribus works with them.

I've found that the manual is generally better then the wiki for up-to-date explanations of the Scribus functions but there are still areas - especially new stuff - that just aren't described at all (e.g. Lens Effects, etc.).

If I'm looking for info I generally try the manual first, then the wiki, then a more general internet search but it's a lot to look through - especially if you don't know the exact term to search for - and sometimes I get tired of reading and just give up.

It would be great if the manual was kept fully updated - a large chunk of the wiki would be redundant if it was - but, without people with the spare time to work on it, we've just got to depend on the kindness of strangers. Such is Open Source, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

bigal

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 10:52:38 pm »
 Hi Garry,

Hmm. I am embarrassed and not a little shamefaced now. I looked at the Wiki and searched around a lot on the web. I also checked the various Quick start and some other guides as well as searching through the Scribus fourms. Completely forgot the 'Under My Nose' help files.

I mostly always use open source software and therefore fully understand your comments about documentation. I have tried to help in a couple of the forums that I am in, but mostly I don't know enough; certainly not enough to start writing documentation. I do hope though, that one day I will be able to contribute more. Good, readable, clear, unambigous docs are the making of many pieces of software. If I went on I would be miles off topic so I'll stop but please accept yet another Thank You from one very happy (and quite senior) student.
 

Cheers

Alan
Absolute space exits no longer; there is only space relative to a certain initial position of the body. (Henri Poncaire. 1854-1912)

soakedlontra

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 02:27:37 am »
Same struggle here. I have started my project (a daily planner) from scratch. This time I picked the double sided layout and the Magazine preset layout. Like bigal one margin is "active" and set to the default number 14.111 mm. I will keep it in that way for the time being, then print a first draft to see how it looks  and then change it if necessary.

Thanks Garry for your useful comments.

cheers


Betty



Thanks Garry for your comments.

GarryP

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 02:29:52 pm »
You're welcome Betty, and good luck with your project. I hope it turns out as you want it to.

P.S. If you're making a daily planner then don't forget about the "Item -> Multiple Duplicate" function which may help you to create grids/rows/columns more easily. (The Table tool might get a bit cumbersome if you've got a lot of formatting to do.)

soakedlontra

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 06:36:15 pm »
You're welcome Betty, and good luck with your project. I hope it turns out as you want it to.

P.S. If you're making a daily planner then don't forget about the "Item -> Multiple Duplicate" function which may help you to create grids/rows/columns more easily. (The Table tool might get a bit cumbersome if you've got a lot of formatting to do.)

 Thanks for the tip! I am having problems is setting the document right.  I will start a new threat where I describe each problem.  I have read all the info I could find about making booklets in the manual and wiki but it did not help much and I am getting very frustrated.  I am considering buying the manual for beginners but is there a plan to update it to the latest version of Scribus?

Betty

GarryP

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 03:10:04 pm »
With 1.5 coming soon(ish) - fingers crossed - I can't really see anyone going to the bother of printing anything for the current version but I've no idea what's already in the pipeline. (A quick look on Amazon shows nothing after 1.3.5.)

Having said that, I'm not aware of any major changes to Scribus since 1.3.x that would affect booklet creation. Most of the changes since 1.3.x - from a user perspective - have been functionality additions and making the software more solid. The core stuff is pretty much the same as far as I know. Even when 1.5 is released I can't see it being radically different to previous versions as that would upset existing users.

While the Official Scribus Manual is quite pricey for a lot of people, a lot of the proceeds from it go into the pot to help pay for development. So if you bought it you'd be contributing to the project. (I've no idea if there's any similar kind of arrangement with books that aren't the official manual.)

All in all, I really can't say whether it's worth buying the manual - or any other book - or else waiting for something new to come along. It's your money and your choice/gamble.

If you want free advice and help then you've always got the forum, but if you prefer to go through exercises and set-texts in a printed book - and many people, myself among them, do (even though I've not read the Scribus ones) - then that's up to you.

Or maybe someone else has some more up-to-date information…

All that said, don't hesitate to ask a question on the forum, no matter how "basic" you think it sounds. You never know how many other people have exactly the same problem but are afraid to ask and would appreciate it being asked by someone else.

soakedlontra

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 06:47:13 pm »
With 1.5 coming soon(ish) - fingers crossed - I can't really see anyone going to the bother of printing anything for the current version but I've no idea what's already in the pipeline. (A quick look on Amazon shows nothing after 1.3.5.)

Having said that, I'm not aware of any major changes to Scribus since 1.3.x that would affect booklet creation. Most of the changes since 1.3.x - from a user perspective - have been functionality additions and making the software more solid. The core stuff is pretty much the same as far as I know. Even when 1.5 is released I can't see it being radically different to previous versions as that would upset existing users.

While the Official Scribus Manual is quite pricey for a lot of people, a lot of the proceeds from it go into the pot to help pay for development. So if you bought it you'd be contributing to the project. (I've no idea if there's any similar kind of arrangement with books that aren't the official manual.)

All in all, I really can't say whether it's worth buying the manual - or any other book - or else waiting for something new to come along. It's your money and your choice/gamble.

If you want free advice and help then you've always got the forum, but if you prefer to go through exercises and set-texts in a printed book - and many people, myself among them, do (even though I've not read the Scribus ones) - then that's up to you.

Or maybe someone else has some more up-to-date information…

All that said, don't hesitate to ask a question on the forum, no matter how "basic" you think it sounds. You never know how many other people have exactly the same problem but are afraid to ask and would appreciate it being asked by someone else.

I have just ordered the beginners manual. It sounds like the best option for me right now. I have resolved a problem with grid and guidelines (they were stuck on the foreground and putting my Mac to sleep overnight has resolved the issue) but something else has cropped up this time it's about master pages. I'll probably see you there! :)

LilZebra

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 11:49:29 pm »
I've found that the manual is generally better then the wiki for up-to-date explanations of the Scribus functions but there are still areas - especially new stuff - that just aren't described at all (e.g. Lens Effects, etc.).

I know this is a post from 3 yrs. ago...but it still applies to the situation.

I am looking for a way (key press sequence) where I can upsize or downsize the Manual (F1 key) text.

My eyesight is not as good as it used to be and I find no obvious option to do this.

I have already tried like I can in browsers Ctrl-+ for large text and Ctrl-- for smaller text.

The text is approx. 4 to 6 pt. in size and I am frustrated that I cannot scale it up.

So other than that, I must rely on the Scribus Wiki to get the lowdown on the capabilities of the software.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 12:05:08 am by LilZebra »
Linux (Fedora 22 i686_64). Scribus 1.5.3svn. MATE / GNOME 3.16 evince.

GarryP

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Re: Confusion about document pre-set margins
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2016, 02:40:53 pm »
Unfortunately there's no way for the user to increase the size of the text in the manual (that I can find).

I don't know what software is used to create the manual so I've no way of knowing if there's a way of letting the user do so.

If you have multiple monitors you could move the manual to a different screen and change the display parameters of that screen.

Alternatively you could print the page you're looking at - from the manual - to a PDF then use a PDF reader to zoom in.

If worst comes to worst you could use a screen magnifier application but that's probably going to make the screen too cluttered.