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Scribus => Raster and Vector Graphics => Topic started by: rascalsmom on October 02, 2013, 04:56:59 pm

Title: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 02, 2013, 04:56:59 pm
I prepared a document for print in 1.4 and then opened it in 1.5 to save as a pdf/x-1a file. Imagine my surprise when I saw how different the color looked (see attached images). Too bright and too much contrast in 1.5! Print preview in both dulls the color considerably. Which do I rely on as being the most accurate for what to expect when the document is actually printed?
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 03, 2013, 12:10:25 am
Are You sure that You use the same icc profile in 1.4 and in 1.5, and have You upon color managment in 1.4 and in 1.5?
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 03, 2013, 01:07:25 am
. . . have You upon color managment in 1.4 and in 1.5?

Color management is enabled in both 1.4 and 1.5

Are You sure that You use the same icc profile in 1.4 and in 1.5,

Well, I had the same profiles for CMYK and printer outputs, but different ones for RGB and monitor. I changed 1.5 to match 1.4 and created another pdf. I can't tell much of a difference. Where I'm really finding a problem is with the pdf reader. Document Viewer shows the colors brighter, but closer to what I intended. Acrobat Reader 9 changes the background color from green to black. Very frustrating.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: Nermander on October 03, 2013, 09:23:25 am
Did you export "for printer"? That creates a CMYK PDF and will genereally look "bad" on screen.

Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 03, 2013, 09:39:19 am
If You want see pdf with cmyk colors and with simulation icc profile, use PDF-XChange Viewer (free program) not Adobe Reader and set the same icc profile in option in PDF-XChange Viewer as You set in Scribus.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 08, 2013, 11:04:57 pm
I apologize for seemingly abandoning this thread. I sent my book off to the printer (CreateSpace) for a proof and have been dismayed at the cover colors. I chose a darkish green background which printed almost black. Color contrast in the photos is too high so that shadows are almost black. Of my two PDF readers, this is most similar to Adobe Reader 9 (for Linux).

I took Leaf's suggestion and tried PDF-XChange Viewer under Wine. I matched profiles and it made my background black, same high contrast results with the photos (as did Adobe). The PDF reader that came preinstalled (Ubuntu 12.04) gave an almost identical rendering to what I had in Scribus.

I realize that print and computer monitors will not render colors the same, but I've can't figure out how to improve the book cover. I've experimented in Scribus with lighter shades of green, also different combinations of CineonLogM or sRBG, Swop2006_coated5v2 or Fogra27LCMYK, and PDF/X-1a or PDF/X-3,  but no combination makes a difference in what the PDF readers display.

Suggestions welcome. In the meantime I'm off to the CreateSpace forums to try to see how others have dealt with similar problems.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 09, 2013, 09:48:33 am
rascalsmom
Tell me when You convert your image from rgb to cmyk, before import (in KRITA, Gimp with separate+, PS, PP etc) into Scribus, if rather when You publish to pdf from Scribus?
Important is monitor calibration too. If you have it done?

ps
I tested, and compare color managment and conversion in Scribus 1.3.9 and in Photoshop some time ago, and colors in PS and in Scribus looked identically, identically values. So rather Scribus does not make the problem.

Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 09, 2013, 03:59:07 pm
leaf, thank you so much for your reply.

To answer your questions, I've done nothing to convert the images from RGB to CMYK. From what I understand, the conversion takes place when the file is saved in PDF/X1-a.

Yes, my monitor is calibrated.

I've spent hours on the CreateSpace forums and, apparently, this is a common problem with color  files. I learned a lot about how experienced CreateSpace users work with their photos for a better  outcome with CreateSpace printers.

Apparently, CreateSpace is set up to work with sRGB, and does their own conversion, so I'm experimenting with PDF/X-3 as well. Using Adobe Reader for a first viewing, however, doesn't seem to make a difference in how the files look.

I've attached images of what I'm seeing. The actual print copy is closer to the Adobe rendering although the background color is not actually black, it is a dark, muddy green.

I've been reading about device profiles which become embedded in PDFs and am wondering if I didn't accidentally do that (not that I would know how to do it on purpose!). That might explain why, no matter what changes I make, the renderings always come out the same.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 09, 2013, 06:30:49 pm
Attach screen this windows from Your Scribus (color managment), and Your pdf - only image inside, and image, please.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 09, 2013, 07:40:59 pm
leaf, here is the screenshot of my document color management windows and the pdf file open in Scribus. You are so kind to help me, especially with a language difference. Did I understand your request correctly?

Here is another odd thing. If I save the file as a PDF 1.5, there is no problem with color in Adobe Reader. It renders the green as I chose.

It seems that I'm doing something to cause a problem when I export the file as a PDF/X.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 09, 2013, 07:49:54 pm
Sorry my English is poor. I thought about pdf with any photo inside, not about screen from pdf. And about photo singly too. (I want check if inside this photo is embed any icc profile)


Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 09, 2013, 08:24:23 pm
Sorry my English is poor. I thought about pdf with any photo inside, not about screen from pdf. And about photo singly too. (I want check if inside this photo is embed any icc profile)

Not at all! Even two native speakers of any language must clarify meanings for good communication.

But I'm sorry, I cannot seem to get a pdf file small enough for the forums size limit.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: Nermander on October 10, 2013, 08:24:05 am
To answer your questions, I've done nothing to convert the images from RGB to CMYK. From what I understand, the conversion takes place when the file is saved in PDF/X1-a.
Quote
Apparently, CreateSpace is set up to work with sRGB, and does their own conversion, so I'm experimenting with PDF/X-3 as well. Using Adobe Reader for a first viewing, however, doesn't seem to make a difference in how the files look.

If they are set up for sRGB, why do they require PDF/X-1a? PDF/X-1a does not allow for sRGB images...
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: utnik on October 10, 2013, 10:43:29 am
i just took a short look at the .pdf specifications of createSpace – there's not much written about color spaces and profiles. i would send them .pdf 1.3 files in sRGB. (in scribus: 'screen / web')
i'm sure, they can deal with this…

utnik
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 10, 2013, 11:04:50 am
I think that I know where is problem with your pdf-x1a. Adobe Reader for Linux show bad colors when open pdf with cmyk colors and with standard pdf-x 1a. I prepared on scribus 1.5 and in Corel 2 files with cmyk colors  and pdf-x 1a, and on Linux pclos in Adobe Reader colors was bad. When I open on Windows in Adobe Reader or in Evince, Foxit Reader on Linux colors are good. (without big contrast). And of course pdf-x1a has only cmyk and spot colors.

Have You installed litte cms?

EDIT:
PDF-XChange Viewer under Wine on Linux show bad colors too, on Windows works good.

Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 10, 2013, 12:55:56 pm
If they are set up for sRGB, why do they require PDF/X-1a? PDF/X-1a does not allow for sRGB images...

I've been wondering the same thing. Apparently, accepting PDF/X-1a is fairly recent. The forum threads from which I gleaned the sRGB information were several years old.

Also, it seems there is a lot of information CreateSpace does not divulge publicly, such as what profiles they use. I can't help but wonder if they're doing a change-up on their printing system (complete guess on my part.)

i just took a short look at the .pdf specifications of createSpace – there's not much written about color spaces and profiles. i would send them .pdf 1.3 files in sRGB. (in scribus: 'screen / web')
i'm sure, they can deal with this…

Utnik, thanks. I've been coming to the same conclusion but wondered how to do that, so you've answered one question. (Seems simple but everything Scribus has been a learning curve for this first book). Fortunately proofs from CreateSpace are cheap (around $4 plus shipping), so I can afford to experiment, LOL.

I think that I know where is problem with your pdf-x1a. Adobe Reader for Linux show bad colors when open pdf with cmyk colors and with standard pdf-x 1a. I prepared on scribus 1.5 and in Corel 2 files with cmyk colors  and pdf-x 1a, and on Linux pclos in Adobe Reader colors was bad. When I open on Windows in Adobe Reader or in Evince, Foxit Reader on Linux colors are good. (without big contrast). And of course pdf-x1a has only cmyk and spot colors.

EDIT:
PDF-XChange Viewer under Wine on Linux show bad colors too, on Windows works good.

Thank you for experimenting, leaf, your conclusions are extremely helpful. It's a relief to know it hasn't been something I've unknowingly done wrong! Adobe has shown only very reluctant support for Linux, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

The only other thing I can say is that my first proofs came back from CreateSpace with very dark colors, closer to what Adobe Reader displayed. Apparently, this is common with CreateSpace printing, so there is much discussion on the CreateSpace forum for getting better color.

My interior files (also sent as PDF/X1-a) were black and white and turned out fine.

My ultimate goal is to print through Lightning Source. However, they only accept PDF/X-1a and have much fussier requirements. In addition, their proofs are more like $30 each so correcting mistakes can be costly! That's why I decided to start with CreateSpace. Now I'm glad I did.

Have You installed litte cms?

No. Should I?

Thank you for all these helpful responses, I am extremely grateful.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: leaf on October 10, 2013, 02:19:52 pm
LittleCMS is important, more is here:
http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Getting_and_installing_ICC_profiles

about colors, more here:
http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Help:Manual_Cmslprof
http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Help:Manual_Cmsprofiling
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on October 11, 2013, 03:52:56 pm
Thank you leaf, I will do that.

I have to say I've learned a lot from my problems. Thank you to everyone who responded and helped.
Title: Re: color rendering: 1.4 vs 1.5 vs print preview
Post by: rascalsmom on November 02, 2013, 02:32:44 pm
I just wanted to follow-up to report that my second cover proof was perfect. Besides the help I received here, I also got a few tips for CreateSpace printing at their forums. I have another issue(!), but that's for another thread.