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Scribus => Layout Issues => Topic started by: grahamgould.org.uk on January 08, 2013, 10:17:03 pm

Title: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: grahamgould.org.uk on January 08, 2013, 10:17:03 pm
When I print my project from Scribus  all works fine.
When I save as a PDF, THEN PRINT, SOME OF THE TEXT CHANGES FONT AND PRINT GOES FAINT.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Nermander on January 09, 2013, 10:21:17 am
Do you embed fonts in the PDF?

Du you export "for printer" or "for screen/web"?

"For printer" means CMYK PDK, "for screen/web" means RGB PDF. Usually you should NOT use "for printer" if you are going to print on a regular printing.

So, my advice is:

1. Make sure all fonts are embedded
2. Export to PDF for screen/web

If that does not help, we need more information.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: grahamgould.org.uk on January 10, 2013, 12:46:46 am
Many thanks to your reply, I did check the settings and they were as you said. But I have redone my project and changed the fonts and all is ok. I am new to DTP and your help was of a great help. All I have to do is get a pdf file to print a custom size paper size and I would be happy.
But HP say it not the printer that controls the size output but Adobe. I have just download Adobe XI pro and it still does not work. Trying to solve some of these problems you just go round in circles.
Once again thank you
Graham
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Meho R. on January 11, 2013, 05:13:51 pm
A tip: when printing from Adobe Reader, pay attention to "Scaling" option in the Print dialog. If you want your document to be printed in "real" dimensions instead of being smaller/larger than intended, set scaling to "None".
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Nermander on January 11, 2013, 10:23:13 pm
It turns out the problem here seems to be that his printer does not support setting a "custom" paper size, and if the printer is set to A4 paper size Adobe Reader (and Acrobat?) will print the page centered on the A4 page (not at the edge).

In earlier versions of Adobe Reader there is a checkbox for "Auto rotate and center", but that checkbox seems to have been removed in Reader X (maybe even 9, I only know it's present in Reader 7 and Reader 8). I only have access to Reader 7, 8 and X, and Acrobat 7.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: toyotadesigner on January 13, 2013, 01:52:20 pm
Set the size to 100% if you want to print the document. The HP drivers offer a 'fit to page' option, which reduces the A4 in size so that it fits into the printer margins (defined by the printer), that means the printed document will always be a tad smaller than the original.

On the other hand I don't know how Windows handles the PDF files - on the Mac you have a built-in PDF viewer which prints without any flaws.

I don't know if you've already purchased Adobe PDF. There is an alternative: GhostScript, GS View (for Windows only), and a version of Gutenprint. Just check if your HP printer is supported, and you can print everything in PostScript - the GhostScript engine will 'translate' the code to PCL (printer command language) in your printer. GhostScript and Gutenprint are free, GS View costs a few Euro/Dollars.

With GhostScript you can even print directly from Scribus, print the document, print separations, etc.

If you want even more features, you might check 'printfab' for Windows. It's a complete Postscript RIP (Raster Image Processor), also based on GhostScript without any limitations and without the installation hassle. Just make sure that your printer model is supported.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: grahamgould.org.uk on January 14, 2013, 02:25:04 pm
Many thanks for all your help I can now get it to do what I require
Graham
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Jeff George on September 08, 2016, 08:11:59 pm
Do you embed fonts in the PDF?

Du you export "for printer" or "for screen/web"?

"For printer" means CMYK PDK, "for screen/web" means RGB PDF. Usually you should NOT use "for printer" if you are going to print on a regular printing.

So, my advice is:

1. Make sure all fonts are embedded
2. Export to PDF for screen/web

If that does not help, we need more information.

I was having the exact problem that the original poster described, and Nermander's response fixed it, so this post amounts to a bump for this useful thread.

Bottom line is, when Scribus says Export "for printer," it means export for use by a print shop, not a home or office inkjet printer. If you want your readers to be able to print out a hardcopy on their own printer, you need to export "for screen/web".
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Nermander on September 12, 2016, 11:32:53 am
I think the "printer" option maybe should be renamed to "press".
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 12, 2016, 12:10:10 pm
I agree.

Either "Press" or "Print Shop", whatever makes it clear that it's for something other than home printing (unless you've got a professional print press at home of course).

I don't know how the regionalisation of Scribus is done - for translation of the word "press" (or whatever) - but surely this can't be a big job to fix.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: a.l.e on September 12, 2016, 04:12:05 pm
"print shop" is imo better than "press"...

but, at the end, having been thinking about this for years, i start thinking that the combox maybe does too much and should be split, so that it gets clearer what is meant with it?

many years ago i've opened this ticket...

https://bugs.scribus.net/view.php?id=8404

which sadly got closed without a satisfactory answer (at least not for me).

i can reopen it, if you want to add new propositions...
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 12, 2016, 04:58:53 pm
I don't think re-opening it would do much good. A quick read says to me that there's enough of an argument between the various sides that no-one will be able to make a decision that everyone likes.

For me "Output Intended For: Screen/Web" says that you're not going to print it (but your user might if they want to) and "Output Intended For: Printer" says that you are going to print it somehow (but you might not know how).

The tool-tip sort of gives you an idea of what to expect but how many people will know whether their home printer is a "true 4-colour CMYK printer"? They might know it's got inks that are those colours and think that's enough. (Don't average home printer drivers convert to RGB at some point anyway, even if they convert back later? I think I read that somewhere.)

If "Output Intended for" was changed to something like "How to handle colours" then the options could be changed to: Standard Screen Document / Separate Colours for Print Shop / Convert to Greyscale.

That way, even if someone finds the option and is curious, the "Separate Colours" wording should put people off using it unless they know what they're doing.

I think it's the innocuous wording of just "Printer" that will be be confusing people. To the average user a printer is just the box on their desk. If the wording was changed to make it more scary then most people will just stick with the default.

Long story short: I agree that the wording needs to be made clearer but I can't see a consensus on what to do about it appearing any time soon.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: CGood on September 12, 2016, 06:38:34 pm
Given that a change of wording is just about the lightest update one could ask the devs to undertake, maybe the bug should get reopened?

Output for Screen/Web
Output for Home Printer
Export for Professional Print Shop


No wording will be perfect, but maybe confusion could be lessened quite cheaply.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 13, 2016, 02:38:20 pm
I agree.

Whether the text is hard-coded or in a resource file it shouldn't be much more than a find/replace operation. That's for the English version at least; other languages will probably take more time to get translated.

My current preferences for wording changes would be:

* Current -> Changed To
* Screen/Web -> Normal Screen/Web Document
* Printer -> Professional Print Shop (CMYK Separation)
* Greyscale -> Screen/Web (Greyscale)

Like you say, no wording will be perfect but as long as it tells the average user what's going on then it will be better than it currently is. Pro users will know what they're doing anyway; it's the average user/beginner that gets confused with this.

I don't know if it would be better to open an old ticket or just create a new one. I don't have a preference myself. I'll leave that up to people who know the team/system better.
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: Nermander on September 13, 2016, 03:34:33 pm
"print shop" is imo better than "press"...

Many places called "print shops" don't handle CMYK PDF:s, they just have expensive color laser printers and print from Adobe Acrobat. The printer itself usually takes RGB input.

That's why my suggestion was "press" (because I thought pre-press is a well known term).
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: a.l.e on September 13, 2016, 04:21:41 pm
i agree that press could be more precise, but i fear that most people will not understand it correctly...

the first meaning that comes to my mind is newspapers, then compacting... at some time i would think about the a print press... but just because i'm in scribus :-)

i would love it, if you could solve this issue, since it's something that has produces lot of questions over the years but and the more i read new proposals the more i think this option should be split in multiple ones that are easy to understand...

but if anybody comes with a better wording i will fully support the change!

p.s.: sadly, it seems that "Printer" is not the same as "CMYK Separation"... it depends on the profile that has been used... as jean wrote.

p.p.s.: maybe we should ask jean what the option exactly does... or go through the code, find it out and document it!
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 13, 2016, 04:45:31 pm
I'm not sure how many people coming to Scribus will know what a printing press is. Most printing these days is done with a home/office printer and, as Nermander says, a lot of "print shops" are just places that have a big laser printer. Also, as a.l.e mentioned, "press" for some people will mean "newspaper", i.e. "the conference room was full of press men".

I realise that a lot of printing is still done around the world on actual presses - especially where electricity isn't readily available - but if we're talking about doing something with the output from Scribus then it will have to go through some kind of digital equipment. And for most people it will be inkjet/laser printed.

I'm guessing that very few Scribus users will have their output put through a real professional print machine (whatever I mean by that given the number of different types) but I assume the ones that do will know more about what they're doing than the average user.

As has been said above, it's all a matter of wording and nothing will be perfect because of the sheer number of variations in processes but if whatever is used makes sense to the majority of users while giving the pros a way of doing things their way then that will help.

I added the "(CMYK Separation)" bit to the text to make it look scary to beginners - they'll stay away from it - but also to let the pros know what they can use if they want to but if that's wrong then I'm happy for other wording.

None of my stuff gets printed on anything other than a common or garden home/office printer so this is not my area of expertise but I'm trying to come from the angle of the "average Scribus user" (whoever they might be).

Just to add a bit more spice to the recipe: Maybe there's a better way of doing this. Perhaps there's a way of putting Scribus in "Professional Mode" that opens up all of the pro stuff (like CMYK separation, etc.) while "Normal Mode" only lets the user do stuff with RGB. The average user isn't troubled by options they don't know what they're doing with while the pros have all of the toys to play with. It's a thought, but I can't see it happening.

P.S. I like the idea of asking what the various options actually do though I'm not sure the explanation would fit into a drop-down box or a tool tip!
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 15, 2016, 10:45:01 am
I have an alternative suggestion which starts with a question.

Q. Would you ever want to get a colour separation without using properly set-up colour management?

Here's my thought process behind the question:

As far as my basic knowledge of printing goes, colour management is used to make sure that the colour you're seeing on the screen will be analogous to that seen on the printed page.

If that is correct then you would not want to get a colour separation without using colour management as you wouldn't otherwise know what you would get at the end of the printing process.

If that is correct then colour management must be switched on before you try and produce a colour separated PDF.

If that is correct then wouldn't it be sensible to omit the "Printer/Print Shop" option from the "Output Intended For" drop-down unless colour management was switched on?

That way, people not using colour management would not see the confusing option while people using colour management would be able to use it.

I thought I'd add that to the discussion to see what people thought.

On top of that, and taking the idea a bit further...

Q. Would you ever use CMYK colours without using colour management?

Again, from my basic knowledge of printing, you would only need CMYK colours if you were going to get the output printed using a CMYK printer. (Otherwise RGB will do the job just nicely.)

If that is correct then, if CMYK is only properly usable when colour management is switched on, the use of CMYK colours is only sensible when colour management is switched on.

If that is correct then being able to specify and use CMYK colours should only be possible if colour management is switched on.

If that is correct then users should only be able to use RGB colours unless colour management was switched on.

I realise that this might be taking things a bit far but it doesn't sound to far-out to me. What's the point of using CMYK if you're not going to print to a CMYK printer? Maybe CMYK should be hidden completely unless colour management is switched on.

I also realise that most people don't know how to properly set-up colour management so the above might sound like a restriction but I think it will make things a lot simpler for the average user and stop people blaming Scribus for dodgy output (not that I've heard of that happening so far).

Essentially you restrict users to RGB unless they activate colour management. If they activate colour management then it's up to them to set it up properly. There should not be any default values when they activate it. The user should have to specifically make choices which are theirs alone and they have no-one else to blame if they get it wrong. If you don't know what you're doing then don't use it.

What do people think?
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: mnawij on September 16, 2016, 08:26:14 am
Here's my 5 cents  :D

My understanding is that most applications write to RGB except those specifically used for printing, but this is even changing with the new digital presses.  I can print RGB files just fine on my Canon C800, you just have to understand how to set up the color profiling for the press before you do...  Most "small" print shops that I work with do not hassle color management and the larger ones only use one, maybe two specific profiles.  Also the the wide format ink jets have no problems printing RGB files.  Color management has its place, but only for high end crucial projects.  I would prefer to see pdf output named with the files resolution vs. an actual name, maybe both... and this does not even take into consideration of lpi (lines per inch) in printing.  Every R.I.P (raster image processor) can reproduce higher level dpi based on the maximum lpi the software interprets... see http://the-print-guide.blogspot.com/2009/04/image-resolution-for-printing-lpi-vs.html  for an interesting explanation, but usually it is double the lpi which the RIP interprets, is the DPI needed for the photos.  I do business with a printshop that has a RIP at 400lpi, so technically all photos in the artwork should be 800 dpi for maximum quality... but I digress. Here are my possible suggestions for pdf naming:

72/96 dpi/ppi - Screen/Monitor
150/225 dpi - Desktop Printing
400/600 dpi - Profession Printing

Regards,

mnawij
Title: Re: SAVE AS PDF
Post by: GarryP on September 16, 2016, 05:46:21 pm
A very interesting article mnawij, thanks for sharing it.

While reading it I had to search for other information and came across these other articles that people might be interested in:

1. Difference between offset printing and digital printing
https://www.mgxcopy.com/blog/san-diego-printing/2014/05/27/whats-difference-offset-printing-versus-digital-printing/

2. Tips for preparing for printing
https://support.office.com/en-gb/article/Tips-for-preparing-your-publication-for-commercial-printing-32ae0c9e-08f1-4849-8774-4bd818e49f2e
(It's for Publisher but a lot of the tips apply just as well to Scribus such as: discussing needs with the print shop; choosing the right colour model; etc.)

3. How to choose the best paper weight
https://www.mgxcopy.com/blog/san-diego-printing/2014/05/21/choose-the-best-paper-weight-for-printing/
(It's by the same company as link 1 but it's interesting anyway.)

I think it would be great if some people like yourself who really know what they're talking about could come up with a guide for Scribus users who want to get their stuff printed professionally. If people are told what they need to know and do before they start it would probably make things a lot easer for all of the people involved (creators and printers).

It wouldn't need to be very long, just a series of steps that people should take before they start to create their document with some general guides as to what to watch out for. Or maybe just a curated Wiki page containing links to articles such as the one you supplied. A sort of one-stop-shop for people wanting to get stuff professionally printed.

It's just a thought.