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Scribus => Text and Typography => Topic started by: carusoswi on August 28, 2012, 11:52:23 am

Title: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on August 28, 2012, 11:52:23 am
So, I have inserted a text frame.
I want to place a decimal tab (Scribus calls it "period") at 5" ruler mark.
I do so using the properties, text, tabulature menu.
When I return to the page and type text, the first line works as expected.
The tab for second and subsequent lines line up on each other, but are well left of the tab mark on the first line.
It seems nothing I try works.  I could, perhaps, delete that first conforming line, but this seems counterintuitive.
Can someone offer suggestions?
Thanks.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on August 28, 2012, 05:23:20 pm
hi caruso

if the cursor is placed in a paragraph, your tab will be set only for this paragraph.
you have to select the frame only or all the paragraphs for wich you need the tab.
another solution (might be the best) is to assign the tab to a paragraph style…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: Nermander on August 29, 2012, 10:44:42 am
I think this is a problem that many have said is confusing. In other programs, hitting enter for a new paragraph will keep the style of the current paragraph. But in Scribus the new paragraph gets the default style instead.

If I recall correct this is a matter of Scribus placing the cursor location on the "wrong side" of the changed style compared to what people expect.
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 01, 2012, 10:35:15 am
Thanks for the replies.
I'll do some more work with this and see how it goes.
As usual with open source applications, I have the feeling of great affinity towards Scribus.

I am a long time InDesign users who hopes to make the switch.

I already see that Scribus is a worthy competitor (at least in terms of my needs), and I expect to make use of Scribus for documents I need to generate in my business, but, in order to be productive, I have to solve some of these minor issues.

Again, thanks for the responses.  I have yet to figure out styles.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 02, 2012, 11:28:04 am
Still struggling with this.
If I create a text frame, set a decimal tab before entering any text, what do I do to keep tabs in the first line of text aligned to subsequent lines?

I hate to appear lazy, but could someone give me step by step directions?

Thanks.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 02, 2012, 11:34:36 am
Continuing to probe this issue, I find that setting a tab for the frame, the first line tabs to the expected location, subsequent lines align some five or so characters left of the expected location.
I can highlight the text, touch the tab indicator in the ruler, and all aligns.

This behavior seems very strange and non-intuitive to me.

I must be missing something.

Sorry to nag, but suggestions, please, and thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 02, 2012, 11:45:57 am
hi caruso

i'm not able to reproduce this strange behavour.
could you upload an example .sla file?

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 02, 2012, 07:43:52 pm
Have a look at the attached.  Two identical (or should be identical) lines of tabbed text.  They do not line up.  What am I doing wrong?
Thanks for the reply.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 03, 2012, 01:22:17 am
hi caruso

in the first line of your attached document there is an ellipsis (three dot sign) before the dollar sign. the first point of this ellipsis sign lines up with the decimal tabulator. if i delete this supplementary character, everything looks as expected…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 03, 2012, 04:29:28 pm
Where is that character coming from?
I never even noticed it.  Will have to check it out.
Thanks for your help.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 03, 2012, 11:23:35 pm
Utnik:
Here is my work flow:

I open a new document with auto text frame.
I open text properties, set a tab at 5" with "period" alignment and dot fill.
I type some text, tab, and type some numerals.
I hit return and repeat the process.

The first line alignment appears to overshoot the mark.
The second and subsequent lines seem to line up ok.

I tried to back out three of my dots, but any backspace takes the numerals all the way back to the left hand side of the text box (next to the text that I typed.  Hitting tab takes those numerals back out to where they started, a bit too far right to line up with the same numerals in the line(s) below.

I know I have to be missing something, but admit that I'm stumped.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 04, 2012, 10:38:31 am
hi caruso

i tried to copy your workflow step by step. everything behaves as expected – no bad alignment…
sorry – can't reproduce the problem.

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: Nermander on September 04, 2012, 10:53:56 pm
Is it really an ellipsis?

Isn't it a tab with dot fill?
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 04, 2012, 11:02:08 pm
hi nermander

you're right. i didn't check this before, but it's definitely a tab.

@ caruso: looks as if you hit the tab button twice. so the cursor jumps to the next automatic (left) tab…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 05, 2012, 05:01:04 am
So, had I hit the tab twice, then I should be able to hit the backspace key and achieve alignment.  That's not the case.  Try it out and see.  When I hit backspace on either line, the text right of the cursor returns far left, next to the text that precedes my tab.

Also, if there were two tabs, they should be represented by tab indicators in the ruler, yes?  There is only one tab showing.

I appreciate your responsiveness, but believe your conclusion to be inaccurate, but I would be happy if you can point out that I am wrong.  That would solve the problem, which, after all, is what I seek.

Please double check and advise.

Thanks!

Caruso

hi nermander

you're right. i didn't check this before, but it's definitely a tab.

@ caruso: looks as if you hit the tab button twice. so the cursor jumps to the next automatic (left) tab…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 05, 2012, 09:03:08 am
hi caruso

when i place the cursor at the left of the dollar sign in the first line of your file and hit 'backspace', then all is aligned well. the same happens with 'backspace' from the tab position (a bit more to the left).

usually, there are automatic tabs wich are active on the right of your rightmost user defined tab. these aren't displayed in the text rulers. but they are defined in 'document setup' → 'tools'. (in your file every inch – see screenshot…)

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6897/screenshot20120905.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/screenshot20120905.jpg/)</noscript>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: GarryP on September 05, 2012, 03:39:50 pm
I've tested Caruso's workflow as mentioned earlier and I can confirm that I got the same result, as can be seen in the attached image (imageA).

This has been repeated on Mac OS X 10.6.8 with:
* Scribus 1.4.1 (30 April 2012 Build ID: C-C-T-F-C1.12.0-Mac/Aqua Using Ghostscript version 8.71), and
* Scribus 1.5.0.svn (12 June 2012 Build ID: C-C-T-F-PC1.9.99-Mac/Aqua-64bit
Using Ghostscript version 8.71)

However, after some experimenting, editing the text directly in the frame, I found some other related oddness.

When I removed the word "one" from the first line, the tabbed numbers returned to where you'd expect them to be (imageB).

Then I added some different text "my f" to the start of the first line and the tabbed numbers moved to the right until the "f" was typed after the space, then the tabbed numbers moved to where you'd expect (imageC).

Removing this new text and typing something different again "hello there everyone" the tabbed numbers again moved to the right, visually by the same distance as the width of the added text (imageD).

All of this suggests, to me at least, that something is a bit awry with the handling of tabs as Caruso suggests but that the problem is intermittent depending on the actual text used (maybe just in the first line).

(I can't see how this particular issue could be related to the automatic tab stops but I'd be happy to learn otherwise as it all seems strange to me, and I'm guessing other new users would be similarly confused.)
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 09, 2012, 10:41:05 am
GaryP:
Thank you for taking the time to confirm this issue.  I am not certain if it is a problem or if it is me and my newness to the application. 
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: Nermander on September 09, 2012, 10:54:00 pm
I just downloaded the file and opened it.

On the line with $12,542.00 there is an extra tab before the $ sign. It can be clearly shown by loooking in the SLA:

Code: [Select]
            <ITEXT CH="This is a test"/>
            <para>
                <Tabs Type="2" Pos="245" Fill="."/>
            </para>
            <ITEXT CH="test"/>
            <tab/>
            <tab/>
            <ITEXT CH="$12,542.00"/>
            <para>
                <Tabs Type="2" Pos="245" Fill="."/>
            </para>
            <ITEXT CH="test"/>
            <tab/>
            <ITEXT CH="$12,542.00"/>
            <trail>
                <Tabs Type="2" Pos="245" Fill="."/>
            </trail>
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 10, 2012, 01:18:52 am
Ok, I would work on this some more, but I have drawn a blank as to how to locate that tabulator.  I know it is somewhere in the properties box, and I thought it was under the Text tab, but cannot now find it for the life of me.
Help!
Thanks.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: Nermander on September 10, 2012, 10:54:10 am
No no no, you are missing the point.

There is a tab character in the line. That tab character moves the position beyond your set tab position to the next tab set at the "default distance".

See the code I included, I cleaned it up a bit. What you have on that line is

test<tab/><tab/>$12,542.00

What you should have is

test<tab/>$12,542.00

There are always tab positions in i paragraph even if there are none set manually. Those default tab positions are evenly spaced at a set distance. When you set at tab manually all "default TAB positions" before that tab becomes void, but at the end of the line there are usually default tab positions set.

Where would you otherwise expect the position to end up if you press TAB once more when at the manually set tab position? Outside the page?

So, what you need to do is just delete the extra tab before the $ sign.
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 12, 2012, 07:59:38 am
Thanks for the reply, but on my machine, backspacing takes the text back to the left.
I am new to Scribus, but have a fair amount of experience with other DTP programs.

I did not put that extra tab there, and, why does it only occur on the first line of text, and not subsequent lines.

And, now, I am doubly stumped, because I cannot get back to that dialog where I was entering the tabs - I know it's a bit off topic, but, how do I get back there?

Thanks.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: Nermander on September 12, 2012, 09:07:35 am
For me, placing the cursor before the $ sign and backspacing took away the extra tab character.

I could also see it if I used the right/left arrow keys to move the cursor on the line.
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 12, 2012, 09:21:05 am
hi caruso

the area for editing your tabs is a bit hidden – you'll find it under 'properties' → 'text' → 'columns & text distances' → 'tabulators'.
but your problem is not located there. it's in your text!

i don't know what you are doing, but if you delete the extra tab, the alignement will be as expected – you probably still mix up the tab character with the defined tab position…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 15, 2012, 03:36:03 am
thanks, utnik.
Gonna open me up a new doc and give it another try.
Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 15, 2012, 03:48:49 am
ok, I tried again.  Workflow:

(no dollar signs this time)

Open Scribus, open new document, auto text frame.
Place input cursor on line one, left side.
Type "This is a test12000" or whatever the number was.  Notice, no space, no chance for an errant tab.
Go to tabulator frame, set period tab at 4" with period separator.
Place input curosr between "test" and number.
Hit tab key once.
Number moves to right with periods filling in the blank space between text and number.
Use arrow key to move input curosr to a position right of number.
Hit return.
Retype the first line and use tabulator to recreate tab as in first line.
Place cursor between text and number.
Hit tab once.
Result: Text moves right, but not as far as that on line 1.
Two tabs do not line up.

Now, what is it that I am missing?

Help, please - sample file attached.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 15, 2012, 12:23:46 pm
hi caruso

after a trial to reproduce your problem, i played a bit with your sample file…
i found out that the problem only persists with the following adjustments:
this remains strange, but you can avoid it easy.
(i'm not sure, if it's a scribus bug or an arial problem – maybe both…)

my suggestions are:

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 15, 2012, 01:09:47 pm
Thanks for looking into my file, Utnik.
I tried again, this time using Times New Roman.
Result seems the same to me.

I actually typed both lines, then highlighted both and set the tabs for both at the same time.

Have a look at this one, please?

Thanks.

Caruso
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: utnik on September 15, 2012, 05:38:45 pm
hi caruso

earlier i checked some 20 fonts and all of them showed correct alignment, even with 'fixed line spacing' and 'maximum ascent' for the first line offset. now i found some more fonts with the strange behavior (times new roman is one of them.) – as written in my last post, you can solve the problem with an alignment to the baseline grid or a more serious entry for the first line offset than this hard core space saver…

with a couple of affected fonts, it really looks as a scribus bug – you should file a bug report.

with a closer look at your file i found something strange (see code snippet)

Code: [Select]
    <ITEXT FONT="Times New Roman Regular" CH="Test"/>
            <tab FONT="Times New Roman Regular"/>
            <ITEXT FONT="Times New Roman Regular" CH="124567.00"/>
            <para>
                <Tabs Type="2" Pos="289" Fill="."/>
            </para>
            <ITEXT FONT="Times New Roman Regular" CH="Test"/>
            <tab FONT="Times New Roman Regular"/>
            <ITEXT FONT="Times New Roman Regular" CH="124597.00"/>
            <trail>
                <Tabs Type="2" Pos="289" Fill="."/>
            </trail>
   

in the first line the tab is between 'para' tags, in the second between 'trail' tags. in your arial file it was the same.
when i look at my files, it's always 'para'.
i don't think, that this is related with the bad alignment, but it looks strange…

utnik
Title: Re: Tab problem in Scribus
Post by: carusoswi on September 15, 2012, 09:04:55 pm
I signed up to post in the bugs forum and will post a sample there sometime today.  Needing to leave the office for home right now.
Caruso