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Community => Scribus forums => Topic started by: tim_occ on December 29, 2016, 11:43:37 pm

Title: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on December 29, 2016, 11:43:37 pm
Hi there,

who is responsable for the Scribus webpage? I'm asking for two reasons.

1. Someone made a link building on homepage, I think that is not wanted. I found this line:
Code: [Select]
<div style="position:absolute;left:-1097px;top:-1817px;"> medicinsk uredelighed advokater nj <a href= http://danmarkpillen.com/ >http://danmarkpillen.com/</a> karriere i sundhedsindustrien </div>
2. I would like help to improve the webpage theme.

Scribus is a designer tool, but if I take a look to Scribus' webpage it looks not really professional. Let's make a comparision between others. ;)
Blender: https://www.blender.org/
Krita: https://krita.org/en/
Gimp: https://www.gimp.org/
Synfig: http://www.synfig.org/

Basicly I like the webpage of Blender. It is well structured and has a lot of visual stuff - here you get the right feeling what you can do with the tool.


Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on December 30, 2016, 05:38:18 pm
I agree that the scribus.net site doesn't look as visually appealing as those other sites but it's way better than what it looked like before it had a revamp a while ago.

I think the aim was that the site as it currently stands would be the start of something but it seems to have been left behind. For example, this page https://www.scribus.net/category/upcoming-events/ is essentially blank. Even if there are no up-coming events I think it would be nice if it - at least - told people about things happening in Scribus, e.g. IndigoDock, RTL language support etc. If people can see that Scribus is being regularly updated they are more likely to want to give it a try. A lot of people don't bother trying software if it hasn't been updated for a while because they assume that, if no-one is updating it then, there will be no support if it goes wrong. (Has the main developer just left it to die while they get on with something more interesting?)

It would also certainly help potential users if they could see more images of Scribus in action and/or what it can produce. There's a "Made with Scribus" page but I think the site needs to be more up-front showing what Scribus can help people to make. Without wishing to cause offence, the newsletter, book cover and installation guide on that page look very nice but when you look at the kind of images on the other product sites they look a bit "tame". And I mean "tame" from the sense that they aren't dynamic or fun or interest-grabbing. I'll say again, they look nice, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them, but they just don't grab the attention of potential users.

For instance, compare the type of images currently shown on the home pages:
* Blender - Cyborg, cityscape, some kind of Space Station?
* Krita - Manga-style characters, a dragon
* GIMP - A dragon (again) and a woman
* Synfig - More manga-style action characters
* Scribus - Some blokes sitting in what looks like an airport lounge and a printing press

I've cherry-picked the images for effect but I think the idea I'm trying to get over is plain. I know Scribus has got a "no-nonsense professional getting the job done" air about it but so do the other applications mentioned. What the others do though is say "we're doing it professionally, but we can also have fun while doing it". The Scribus website needs to say this too.

Personally I too like the Blender website best out of the ones mentioned. It catches the eye and looks great. Would the Blender Foundation allow the Scribus team to copy and modify their site code perhaps? I don't think it would take much time to make a Scribus version of it. (If I could get a copy of the original resources I could probably even knock something up myself without too much trouble.)

I realise that maintaining the website takes time and effort but once it's set-up there shouldn't really be much work to do other than updating text when things happen and changing some images every now and then to keep it fresh. How often does something happen in the Scribus Universe that needs to be reported? Every few months? Not much maintenance there.

Anyway, long story short, I agree. The website is perfectly nice as it is, but it could be more engaging.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on December 30, 2016, 10:24:33 pm
Hi Garry,

I'm not sure if we need a full copy of blender's wordpress theme. I think a basic barebone for Scribus will do the job. I made a quick bootstrap mockup. Based on this it is not hard to create a wordpress theme out of it. (without any fancy plugins). But I will ask the Blender guys if we can reuse the theme. ;)

What did you says about my mockup?

I think we would need page templates for:
- homepage
- posts
- category pages which show linked posts in one view (like, features, news, downloads)

greets
Martin
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on December 31, 2016, 03:00:06 pm
Hi Martin.

Ah, I didn't realise it was a Wordpress theme. That would make it more awkward I suppose but I don't know anything about how the Scribus site is hosted. I don't have anything to do with it, I'm just concerned - as you are - that it's not getting the right message across.

Your mockup looks great as a starting point. It's clean and "fresh" and is a good way of getting the relevant points to potential users quickly. (I won't mention any small issues I have with it as it's just a mockup.)

Without thinking about it too much, I think the pages could include:
* Home - Pretty much what you've got (but maybe not so much text)
* Features - All of the main features listed (bullet point lists are preferable to paragraphs)
* Showcase - A variety of examples (preferably not a lot of newsletters)
* Downloads - Proper instructions - or links to proper instructions - for all OSes (including warnings about using dev versions)
* Posts - A simple blog list will probably be enough (something that can be easily & quickly edited and maintained)

These pages should, of course, have links where appropriate to the other sites such a the forum, the wiki, etc. Keeping the number of pages down to a reasonable amount will make it easier to maintain which means that someone will be more likely to maintain it.

I'd be wary of putting stuff about colour management on the home page. Most users won't know what it's for, but it should definitely be on the features page. I think the home page should give people a sort of "BANG Oh I want to make me one of those BANG And one of those BANG Oh and I definitely want to try making that too" type of experience.

Things like colour management are great but the average user just wants to make cool stuff they can show to their friends and family first, then they should want to get into the more serious stuff. Draw them in with the cool stuff then keep them hanging around for the more serious features.

Users that want the serious stuff from the start are more likely to read the features list and not be all that bothered about the cool stuff anyway. They'll look to see what it can do before committing to anything so all of the "flash" will be fairly irrelevant to them. Home page - Cool stuff gets them interested, Features page - show them what they're getting.

Anyway, what's you've put together is looking great. It does look like a lot of other websites but that - in my opinion - is a good thing. It's what people are used to seeing so they're already comfortable with the format. Anything weird and they get confused and will move on to something else.

I'm looking forward to seeing more on this but I think it would be wise to wait and see what the team thinks about it. If the website people don't want to change things or the developers don't want it changing or the management don't want to move away from their plan then it's not going to go anywhere.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on December 31, 2016, 04:57:12 pm
Hello Garry,

about the content of the homepage I agree with you. My intention behind was to tease some sections, like: about, features and news. The user should get a short impression. I think we should tell a great story on homepage that the user get these "BANG" effect.

In my opinion the homepage should answer following questions:
- what is it?
- for who is it made?
- why should I use it? -> benefit

I like your list of topics (home, features, showcase, downloads and posts). But I think we need some additional topics which give support to the user, like documentation or tutorials and one additional topic to get more contributors for Scribus.

I can imageing something like that:

* Home (no menu item, because of marketing landing page)
* Features
* Download - filter by operating system (auto detection?), separate source code section
* Showcase - a simple gallery
* News - simple blog for release notes, anouncements, started projects, etc.
* Support - a place where user can find help
  - tutorials
  - documentation
  - forum/wiki
* Contribute
  - developer (code contributions, GSoC?)
  - designer (UI, Website, templates?)
  - writer (documentation, wiki)
  - report bugs
  - donations

greets
Martin
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on January 02, 2017, 05:04:07 pm
Yeah, I think we're pretty much on the same page (pardon the pun).

I'm not sure about the "for who is it made" bit. I think a "what can I do with it" kind of automatically selects the people who it's made for. Tell the potential users what they can do with it and either they want to do that sort of thing or they won't.

Or, to try and put it another way: Instead of saying it's for people who want to create professional looking documents, it might be better to say "look, you can make posters and books and magazines and DVD cover inserts and all of that kind of thing". People tend to use whatever software lets them make the sort of thing they want to make rather than a certain sort of person using a certain sort of software. (Fanboys excepted.)

Hmm. That doesn't sound much better but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

I like your additions. A Support link page is a definite must-have so I have no problem with that.

A nicely written Contributions page will also be good. There are probably a lot of people out there that want to contribute in some way but they either don't know what needs to be done or they don't feel that they have the skills needed. Most people haven't been part of an open source project before so they don't understand what goes on or what the various roles do.

There's no clear path showing what someone can do to get involved. For instance, say someone has some coding skills and wants to get involved in fixing - or at least tracking down - some bugs. (A good way to learn new coding techniques.) There are no clear instructions on how they can start to do that. There are little bits and bobs scattered around the wiki and other places but a lot of them are out-of-date and none of them are comprehensive.

What people get is (and I'm simplifying for effect):
1. Download Qt. (Reader: What's that? Why do I need it?)
2. Download all of the other stuff you need, which depends on your machine set-up. (Eh? What stuff? From where? How do I know if I've done it right?)
3. Get the code from GitHub. (How? What's this? Which bit do I need? Where should I put it?)
4. Upload when done. (How do I do that? What if I get it wrong?)

Most of the instructions are for people who already have experience of doing this sort of thing. There's nothing that tells people what to do from scratch and holds their hand during the process. There could be some fantastic coders out there who have only worked on their own stuff and have no experience of using all of these tools. It's easy to say RTFM, but unfortunately the reader will just reply "to heck with this, I'm off" and go elsewhere.

Experts generally don't remember what it's like to not know what they know. They don't remember being the person who doesn't know what's going on because what they know seems so basic and simple to them that they can't understand not knowing it. Everyone starts off knowing nothing at all. If you know it then you had to learn it, and that means someone else has to learn it too.

Anyway, rant over, for now. (I'm sure I've said most of this before.)

I think the website could be improved quite considerably but it's all dependant on the "powers that be". If the Scribus team doesn't want the site to change - and that's fair enough, it's their site and they can do with it as they please - then that's how things will have to stay. In my opinion it would be wrong to keep the site as it is but that's just my single opinion among many. There's nothing special about what I think.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on January 02, 2017, 05:04:37 pm
for "historical" reasons, the website is one of the last part of the scribus project that i want to get involved with.

so i'll limit my contribution to one single hint:

https://scribus.io

is one of the "community" driven scribus homepages and i don't think that kunda would mind, if you would use it as a playground for creating a working prototype for the scribus home page.

if the team likes the result, they can then take the result and put it on https://scribus.net
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on January 02, 2017, 05:44:50 pm
Hi together,

Garry, I totally agree with you.
I think a "what can I do with it" kind of automatically selects the people who it's made for. Tell the potential users what they can do with it and either they want to do that sort of thing or they won't.

Also your comment about the guides for new contributors. I had the same issues as I started to contribute Scribus.

@a.l.e. That would be nice if we would have a playground to setup a prototype for testing and fill content. But at first a theme or layout template can be develop locally. In worst case I can use my own webspace for a public test version. ;)

BTW I got a response from Ton Roosendaal. He sent me a link to the git repository of Blenders wordpress theme. We can reuse the theme or parts of it. I have checked the theme, maybe it is better to create a new theme, because the Blender theme has a lot of hardcoded parts which have to adapt to Scribus.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on January 02, 2017, 06:11:18 pm
It's really great that you were allowed to use the Blender site code, it shows a real spirit of open source co-operation. A shame that it's a Wordpress theme though.

I'm in agreement with you about using something simpler. If something can be created with just some HTML and CSS (and maybe some LESS/SCSS in the background) then it will be much easier to maintain. Having dependencies on all kinds of frameworks and libraries in the background just makes things more awkward. Minimum use of Javascript will be good too but may be necessary for some nice little effects (as long as it's mostly "hidden" within the framework then that's fine).

Something like Bootstrap should be okay for what's needed. I've not used it myself for anything - except having a bit of a look round to see what it does - but if the HTML can be kept simple it will be easy for someone to make changes.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on January 02, 2017, 06:25:16 pm
Blender is using bootstrap and scss files for compiling to CSS too.

However, I think for Scribus we can make it simple too. For my mockup I used http://pingendo.com/ (http://pingendo.com/). It is a free and nice tool to create mockups with bootstrap. It supports less files and work with plain html and CSS/less. In fact we can easy create different page types (homepage, download page, etc) with this tool and later we port the html to wordpress.

But collaboration is only possible via sharing source files (html, less, images).
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on January 03, 2017, 01:06:05 am
I have created a new Git repository for the mockup files and Wordpress theme:

https://github.com/nitramr/scribus-webpage
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on January 03, 2017, 03:32:18 pm
I've never used Pingendo so it will take me some time to get up-to-speed, when I get the time to get to grips with it anyway. It's been installed and it looks fairly simple (fingers crossed).

Good move putting the project onto GitHub. I've got myself a clone and it's looking nice (I like the new black header bar, for instance). I've also put a watch on it so I can keep up-to-date.

This is a great start. Hopefully a lot of people will get involved, even if it's just with suggestions.

One that note: If anyone knows which images to use for examples of work done, or what features should be highlighted, please post your suggestions here. What's needed - in my opinion - are images that will make someone really want to try Scribus and features that show off what Scribus can do. (It's a marketing exercise after all.)
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on January 28, 2017, 01:33:29 am
Hi Guys,

Garry an me were working on a prototype for the new web page. Now it is time to share it with you. All files are hosted on a temporary workspace, check it out:
http://scribus.martinreininger.de/

Tell us what you like, what you not like and where we can improve things.

Have in mind it is not the final state, some images has to be replace by better ones and also some contents/links are incomplete. But it's enough to get an idea.

greets,
Martin
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: utnik on January 28, 2017, 05:55:02 pm
hi garry and martin

your web page looks great!
the link to the bug tracker is a bit hidden. it could be added to the footer.
…and i'm not sure about the header images:
all in all: good work!

utnik
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on January 29, 2017, 12:42:48 pm
all in all: a very good proposal!

here some hints from my side:

main page:

- the sponsors on the main page... personally, i would add one sponsor like inkscpae does (but rotating among the sponsors currently listed)
- the main title "Open Source Dekstop \n Publishing"... I would not put Open source in there... I love the "Inskape \n Draw freely" (Open source is important, of course, but the title should not imo contain that; I would probably prefer the word free...)
- the "about scribus" section: focus on what scribus does well, not on the technical part. IMO the whole section should be rewritten to be more "user oriented".

features:

- nicely done but there are a few things i would not write in there... or i would write them a bit differently :-)

download:

nice

learn:

good... there are a few other links that can be added in there...

news:

ok... the weak point... we need people who write news :-)

contribute.

yes.


... and if it does not become *the* scribus webpage i would love this to be a community page for scribus...
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: Zyphon on January 30, 2017, 12:17:54 am
This is a great start Martin and I like the layout. With a little tweaking based on the suggestions here then this could develop into a very nice modern looking webpage.

Great work.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on January 30, 2017, 04:29:57 pm
[Martin, if I misrepresent your views below then I apologise in advance.]

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. We're looking forward to reading more. I'll start to answer some of the issues with some general comments.

General: First off I must say that any praise for the site should predominately go to Martin. He's done the vast majority of the work and I've just been around to - figuratively - make the tea.

Images: As Martin said, none of the images are set in stone. They can all be changed and we would hope that anyone who has a better version of anything that's there will suggest something specific or, even better, post a link to something that can be used instead.

Text: All of the text can be changed. What's there, as Martin said, is just so there is something to discuss. We decided to add something from the real world instead of just using lorem upsum or bullet-pointed question marks to get the ball rolling.

Design: The overall design is a bit like custard at the moment - not totally fluid but, at the same time, not quite set. (You could say it's a non-Newtonian website!) The eventual product will probably look much like it is now but most of the details can be - and probably will be - changed. So, whatever you don't like, speak up.

And now for the individual comments:

utnik

I think you're right that the link to the bug tracker could be put on the footer (and therefore on every page). It's important enough to be there. I think the "Get Involved" section might change into something like: Write some code; Change the interface; Get the message out; Report a bug. Or something like that. Something more "active".

The large image on the home page isn't unusual these days and most people will have seen something similar (http://foundation.zurb.com/ , http://www.libreoffice.org/ , etc.). If the browser doesn't show scroll bars then that's probably an issue with the browser. Most people know that web pages can scroll and will try to do so. If someone doesn't have the technical know-how to use their browser then they're probably not going to be able to use Scribus.

I agree that the "standard headers" should be shorter. I don't know how easy/difficult that would be to achieve within the framework being used (that's Martin's area of expertise). I think about half to two-thirds the current height - probably more towards half - would be reasonable.

The current "standard header" images are just place-holders for something better. If you - or anyone else - can think of an image that says "features" or "download" (or any of the other things) better, especially if they are relevant to DTP, then please say so because it's difficult to think of something good (they're already at the second or third versions).

a.l.e

I agree that the sponsors should have more prominence on the home page. Some kind of carousel may be possible (again, that's Martin's area).

I also agree about the text on the home page image being wrong. But what's the Scribus tagline? Inkscape - as you say - has "Draw Freely", Blender has "Creative freedom starts here", GIMP, well GIMP doesn't seem to have one. So what can Scribus have? "Publish it now", "Get it published", "Layouts made easy", "Fast and Free Layouts", "Get laid for free"! (Obviously they're all terrible suggestions.) Maybe someone can come up with something good.

The "About Scribus" section is indeed too wordy - it was taken from the current Scribus web site - and should be re-written into something more "enthusiastic", "upbeat", and "active", and far less technical. Which direction do you think it should go in: What people can do with Scribus (which is then repeated later in this page); or: What Scribus can do (which is then repeated on the features page)? It's difficult to know what to put there. Maybe a mix. If anyone has some good text to use then please say so.

For Features, can you say what you would not put in there or would write differently? It's difficult to know how to respond if you don't give us any idea of what you think is wrong. I know you don't really want to get involved in anything to do with the web site so It's great that you've taken the time to comment but it would really help if you could give more than a vague hint. (You can send me suggestions in a private message if you don't want stuff to go public.)

For Learn, can you say what links you think should also be there? Or are they a secret? It's as if you said "I know how to put this fire out" and then ran off into the distance.  ;)

For News, yes, that's probably the most difficult page to get right. All of the other pages will be fairly static but both Martin and myself - if I've understood his feelings on the matter correctly - feel that this page should be kept "buzzing" with new information. What's been fixed? What are people working on? What's coming up? This page should show people that Scribus has an active community and is being updated regularly. They are more likely to give it a try if they know it hasn't just been left to rot (as so many other projects have been). This is something that Kunda was doing very well until not so long ago.

If this doesn't become "the" Scribus web site then there's no real point in it existing. There's no point in having two Scribus sites, that would just be confusing for everyone. "Hey, have you seen the news on the Scribus site?" "No, which one?" "The main one", "Which one's that?" As far as I'm concerned, either this becomes - or evolves into - the "real" Scribus site or it just goes into the trash. I have no problems with that either way. Martin has put a lot of work into this and I'm sure he would be disappointed if it wasn't used but I warned in my second post in this thread that it could all be for nothing in the end.

Michael

Thanks for commenting. If there is anything specific you think might need changing then don't hesitate to speak up. Even if it's something small. Sometimes it's the tiny details that make the difference.

Martin

I've added some issues to the GitHub project to keep track of what's been commented on so far.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: CGood on January 30, 2017, 07:06:39 pm
Beautiful!

A couple of minor thoughts that do not imply any criticism of this proposed new structure:

If this does become the structure for the official Scribus site, I suggest:

That bug report be a category under http://scribus.martinreininger.de/contribute.html.

I do not see a link to the wiki. I have mixed feelings there. I can't imagine not using and linking to a wiki, but the current wiki incarnation has serious limitations. I think I should put further thoughts regarding the problems with the wiki elsewhere. This thread is about the new site proposal.....and I thoroughly applaud it!



Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on January 31, 2017, 02:36:54 pm
Thanks for your feedback CGood.

As mentioned above, a link to the bug reporter will probably be added to the Get Involved section of the footer (which will be on every page), but I agree that it could also have more prominence on the Contribute page. Getting bugs fixed is always a good thing so the easier it is for people to report them, the quicker people can get round to fixing them. One option would be to swap the Bug Report and Donate sections on that page. It's definitely worth looking into.

Regarding the Contribute page as a whole, I think it would be beneficial if it was expanded to give more information about what sort of thing is expected from people who want to get involved. There could be a lot of people enthusiastic about doing something but might be put off by the scale of what is needed.

For instance, there could be a coder that wants to dip their toe into a project like Scribus but they find the complexity of the project a bit too daunting. If they could see that they could start by fixing a tiny bug here, and changing a little bit of code there, and then moving onto more complicated things it might help them to be more comfortable about getting involved.

I think each contributor type should have a short description - maybe bullet points - giving potential contributors an idea of: What sort of commitment is expected; How much time they are expected to put in; What sort of skills they need. That sort of thing. If that has whetted someone's appetite to get involved then they can link to a page that gives them a more detailed description of what is needed.

Currently, there is no information about exactly how people can get involved and what they need to do. There are a lot of calls for people to "just climb aboard and start doing stuff" but there's no real information about how someone would actually go about doing so. E.g. If you want to start fixing bugs: What software do you need to have installed? How do you find out what needs fixing first? How do you tell people what you're going to do? How do you know you're doing things the right way? How do you put the fix into the main code? The existing developers know all of this. But new people will not. I think this is putting a lot of people off from getting involved. Scribus looks a bit like a walled garden where only the specially initiated can come in. The hedges need to be trimmed and some of the walls need to come down.

As for the Wiki, there's a link to it from the Learn page - under Scribus Manual - but you're right that it's not very visible. There should be a link to it - maybe something that deliberately says "Wiki" as that's what most people will look for - but I don't think it should be too prominent given the state the wiki is in. People might look at it and wonder why it's such a mess. And if the wiki is a mess, what will the software be like?

I have my own ideas about the wiki. I've been wondering about the wiki, the manual, the help files, and other related issues and have been forming some vague ideas about how they could be done better. Fixing it all would be a massive project in itself - and probably won't even get started - but I would be glad to add my ideas to your own if you started a new thread.

[Martin: I've added some more issues relating to the above comments to GitHub.]
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on February 02, 2017, 01:03:39 pm
martin and garry: i skimmed through the new preview and i like how the the site is improving!

thanks your the good reaction to my and other people feedback!
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: CGood on February 05, 2017, 11:38:28 pm
Hi GarryP, I have sent you a message regarding the wiki and an idea or two about getting the most benefit possible from a limited number of edits. I've been reluctant to publicly let loose at the wiki since I do not want to demean or discourage those who have put in extraordinary effort to create it.

I'm a slow typist and cannot claim to be able to work at the speed needed to fix a great deal, but maybe aiming my efforts where a little effort will have disproportionate payback might be a good strategy? If you have any feedback I'd love to hear it.

I don't want to further divert attention here away from the excellent proposed changes to overall site design.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on February 06, 2017, 02:28:32 pm
Hi CGood. I got your message, thanks. I've just not had the time to reply yet. I'll be in touch soon.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on February 12, 2017, 02:13:48 pm
Hi together,

today I want to present the latest updates for website-mockup:

http://scribus.martinreininger.de/index.html

We have changed a lot details based on your feedback. I think it become more and more a really pretty nice page.
Thanks to all of you.


Martin

PS: Let us know what you think about the updates. More feedback are welcome.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: CGood on February 12, 2017, 08:08:11 pm
Wonderful!!!!!
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: Zyphon on February 13, 2017, 02:01:49 am
Hi Martin,

Loving your work, great job.

I do have some suggestions. Its purely cosmetic but I don't like the order of the menu at the top. I think that the Download and the News menus need to be moved closer to the left. Something like this: Download | News | Features | Showcase | Learn | Contribute.

Also there is no About Us menu link (at the furthest right). The current Scribus webpage does have an About link.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: utnik on February 13, 2017, 01:47:04 pm
the website looks good!

…but the images shouldn't show bad work!
the first entry under features about 'advanced text formatting' is illustrated with a really bad example of a justified text block. (i.e. wide spaces in the first line…)
if you know the 'advanced settings' in scribus' text properties, (in the illustration open, but unused) this should look better. (same thing under 'layout tool')

i know, the images can be changed easily – but don't forget about…

utnik
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on February 13, 2017, 02:56:42 pm
CGood: Many thanks from us both.

Michael: Thanks for the feedback.

The ordering of the menu items is probably something that can be discussed for weeks without agreement as there is no "right" answer and everyone has their own preferences. However, I thought it was something that was worth looking into.

I did a quick survey of some web sites for products in similar areas to Scribus - DTP, images, drawing, etc. - and came up with the attached table. As you can see, there is no agreement between the projects on the ordering of the menu items.

Some general observations are:
* Features - which can involve Showcase and/or Screenshots - seems to be the most popular choice for first item. (LibreOffice puts this under Discover.)
* Download seems to be the favourite for second item.
* About - if there is such a page - usually comes somewhere from first to third place.
* News - if there is any - can come anywhere from first to third place.
* Learn - including Docs, Help, Resources, etc. - seems to come somewhere around the middle of the menu.
* Community - including Participate, Develop, Get Involved, etc. - generally comes somewhere to the right of the menu.
* Support - including Donate, Shop, Store, Contribute - generally comes towards the end of the menu.

I would say that the way things are is a pretty good "average" of all the sites surveyed. It might be better if News came further to the left - before Learn perhaps - but I think it's a reasonable order. If you have any particular reason for why you think your ordering is better then I'd be happy to discuss it further. (Remember, the Scribus project doesn't generate much "news" very often so it's not really a high-priority item.)

Some projects have an About page that describes the product and some projects use that page to introduce the people behind the product. What sort of page were you thinking of?

To me, if the Home page (plus Features) adequately tells people what the product is for - what it does, what it's "about" - then there's no need for a separate About page describing the product. I believe the Home page in the mockup describes Scribus well enough. Is there something more it could do?

On the other hand, a page introducing the main contributors would need good information - including images - from those contributors. I think it's probably unlikely that we would get enough information for that sort of page to be useful for the reader. Just a list of a few names won't be very interesting to anyone.

utnik: As the Features page evolves we may have to change the images again anyway but I agree that some of them could be better.

Would you like to offer some of your own work to be featured? If you have some good ready-made examples that we can use then that would be a big help. It takes time to come up with a good bespoke image that shows what the text is about so if there's something that already exists that would be a great time-saver.

If anyone else would like to put their own work forward for consideration then please attach an example to a post here and we can think about putting it out for the world to see. Landscape images - for the Features page - should preferably be 720x400 PNG with transparency but other sizes could be fine also. Your image must have been made with Scribus (along with Inkscape, GIMP, etc.) and preferably show Scribus "at work".
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: utnik on February 13, 2017, 07:53:40 pm
Would you like to offer some of your own work to be featured?

i will take a look. but im not sure if there's something suitable…

utnik
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on February 23, 2017, 10:47:14 pm
I have uploaded the latest changes from Garry.

regards,
Martin
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on February 24, 2017, 11:33:28 am
on top of my "hey, very good job" here some points:

the main page

- peronsally, i don't like dark themes... and the site feels a bit dark to me... but since most people since to love those dark themes it's probably fine as is.

- i like that the download is prominent and both in the middle and in the navigation. one thing that could be missing is a download icon... people are used to it...

- the document in the first "screenshot" (http://scribus.martinreininger.de/img/backgrounds/mac-book.jpg) should have the grid disabled and the matching guides shown instead (it's about the small details now :-) ...
  i would also change the name of the jpg file...

features:

- in the layout tools i would show the align and distribute dialog, not the arrange pages

learning:

- i would remove  [link removed] (it's basically dead... for now)
- i would add a link to the webirc: https://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Special:WebChat

contribute:

- for now remove the "make a financial donation"... except if anybody volunteers for setting up something outside of the scribus team (some sort of scribus community foundation that would help scribus... : - )
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on February 25, 2017, 12:03:19 pm
Thanks for the extra feedback a.l.e.

You've made some very valid points.

As for the dark theme, that's one of those things that is totally subjective. Some people like dark while others like light. Sometimes it depends on the subject matter but, personally, I think the dark theme looks better for Scribus because it helps as a contrast to the images. I don't think it would be a huge amount of work to change it but I think it can be left as it currently is unless a lot of people have a major problem with it.

Can you explain what you mean about a "download icon" please? (A link to a site that shows what you mean would help.) Do you just mean adding one of those "down arrow" icons to the button as can be seen on the GIMP home page, or something else?

I agree that the image under the "About Scribus" could do with some work. It needs to be something that shows Scribus in action but I agree that the grid should not be shown. If anyone has a really good screenshot, of Scribus being used to make something nice, we can look at using that instead. (And yes, the name of the file should probably change too.)

I agree that the Arrange Pages dialog is not the best one to show for that section. Maybe a combination of Align/Distribute with the Layers dialog would be better. It needs to be looked at.

A quick look at  (link removed) shows that people have posted something in most of the forums this year. Can it really be that "dead"?

I agree that the link to the IRC would be a useful addition.

The financial donation button can be easily removed. It can be added later if necessary.

I've created GitHub issues for the relevant topics above.

P.S. You mentioned that it's about the small details now and I totally agree. We need to make sure that the site looks great and works really well. If the site has problems then people will think that the application has problems. I.e. "If they can't be bothered to get the site right then what does that say about the software?"
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on February 25, 2017, 12:32:43 pm
Can you explain what you mean about a "download icon" please? (A link to a site that shows what you mean would help.) Do you just mean adding one of those "down arrow" icons to the button as can be seen on the GIMP home page, or something else?

yes, that down arrow. mostly, it's in a circle. or in a cloud.

both inkscape and gimp have one on their home page : - )
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: utnik on February 25, 2017, 12:57:46 pm
hi garry
A quick look at link removed/ (http://link removed/) shows that people have posted something in most of the forums this year.

but take a look at them → almost no answers…
Quote
…Can it really be that "dead"?

yes, it is.
…and this has historical reasons:
the once active forum died by spam attacks (without an active administrator). then someone took over, but with the same problem – the forum is an orphane…

there was an effort to save it, but the new owner didn't cooperate in any way – so the active members moved on to the new forum under scribus-user.de (https://www.scribus-user.de/forum/index.php).

the problem is that scribus newbies run against a wall by asking questions on a dead place. (and if someone links to the new forum, he gets banned a couple of weeks later – so there is some administration, but not enough to clean spam attacks in time…)

– for the benefit of the scribus project we should finally shut down the heart and lung machines and let it really die…

utnik
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on February 25, 2017, 02:35:39 pm
Thanks for the clarification a.l.e. I've added an icon as suggested. If you want a different one then I'll have to go looking at the documentation.

Thanks for the info utnik. I've commented out the link. I didn't remove it completely in case the site came back to life. It can be permanently removed later (if necessary).
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on February 25, 2017, 04:32:48 pm
i've removed all references to the other german speaking forum from this thread.

that forum has the perfect name for google and is very high referenced.
after a couple of years, that forum is still first in the google results for the most relevant search terms and we should try not boost it further by publishing links to it.

sadly, as utnik says, the admins of that forum being too passiv (and it seems to be impossible to get in touch with them) and all the people who were giving answers in there migrated to the newly created forum.
the problem is that people still ask questions and do not get any answer.
that's sad for scribus.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: a.l.e on August 11, 2017, 12:40:02 pm
so, i'm cleaning up a bit my tabs today... and one of the topics that i've moved to is this proposal for a new website for scribus.

should we ask the question to the team?

ciao
a.l.e
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: GarryP on August 12, 2017, 11:54:39 am
I think the site is at a point where the question can be asked.
It's not quite fully polished but - to me at least - it makes a better job of promoting Scribus than the current site.
The new site has no complex installation requirements, it's just HTML/CSS/JS with some images, so copying it over shouldn't be a huge issue.
I would like to hear what the team thinks.
Title: Re: Scribus Webpage
Post by: tim_occ on August 13, 2017, 04:22:41 pm
It is also no big deal to create a wordpress theme out of this just to reuse the existing infrastructure.

regards,
martin