Author Topic: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles  (Read 2660 times)

manufv

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Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« on: December 24, 2017, 10:31:15 am »
hello,
Running on windows 10, I'm looking to master a complete workflow to produce/print myself photobooks with Scribus.
My concerne is regarding color profile management until self printing on a  calibrated local inkjet/paper (special ICC profile).

Here is my workflow :
1) prepare images into Lightroom (LR)
2) export images from LR as working.tif/ProPhoto ~full size/resolution/no sharpening
3) compose the book in scribus ~color mngt enable ; my screen is calibrated
4) via scripter,
4.1) resize/crop working.tif image regarding frames composition and generate/saveas a final.tif image ;
4.2) replace working.tif by final.tif into frames (close scribus)
5) sharpen final.tif image with third tool (Nik Output Sharpener)
6) reload scribus~load final.tif image
----
then I want to print to my calibrated local rgb printer/paper (EpsonSurecolorP800+Canson RAG/DUO) ; ICC profile named "P800 E Canson RAg DUO.icc" (icc profile rgb)
What's the good choice :
----
first, at color management settings Document profiles,
- RGB Images : ProPhoto RGB
- CMYK Images : none ; not my concern
- RGB Solid Color sRGB IE...
- Printer : ????????? Scribus do not show my icc profiles ?   
----
If I print from scribus where/when to specify my icc profile  "P800 E Canson RAg DUO.icc"
If I export to pdf then print ;
- what are the best choice to prepare the pdf ?
- what tool to spool the pdf and specify the "P800 E Canson RAg DUO.icc" profile ?
----

Thanks for any help.

Nermander

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 10:42:26 am »
I cannot anser all your questions, but I have one important suggestion to your workflow:

Don't print from Scribus.

You should always generate a PDF from Scribus and print that PDF from a suitable PDF Viewer.

The reason is that the printing in Scribus has almost always had som flaws, people have even suggested removing it completeyt because to many new users try to use it and run inte strange issues.


You will need to use the same monitor profile in Scribus as you use in Lightroom, if you want the preview in Scribus to look the same as in LR.


Remember that a picture does not normally contain any "colors". Each pixel in the image has some numbers. But what color this numbers represent depends on the colorspace, and how to reproduce those colors on screen/printer depends on the profiles.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 10:47:26 am by Nermander »

utnik

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2017, 11:14:37 am »
hi manufv

as i don't own a high quality printer i have never done it, but i would try the following steps:
  • in the 'color' tab of the .pdf export window select 'printer'
  • for solid colors you check 'use color profile', for images 'use color profile' and 'dont use embedded color profiles' if the images still need to be converted. (otherwise you may keep the previously embedded correct profile.)
  • select the profile for your printer (should be available now…)
i hope it works
utnik

Nermander

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 03:19:14 pm »
   
  • in the 'color' tab of the .pdf export window select 'printer'

No, don't do that.

It is usually not necessary, because 99% of all regular printers take RGB input. Even the high quality ones.

Very few printers are designed to take CMYK data, so if you make a CMYK PDF the printer driver will convert from CMYK to RGB before sending to the printer, adding an extra conversion.

The "printer" setting is only needed if you are using a RIP that takes CMYK input.

manufv

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2017, 05:55:49 pm »
thank you for your replys,

Ok, Nermander, I'll export to pdf. but which type ?PDF/X-3, designed to rgb ?
Right, utnik, my printer is RGB mode like is my icc profile (printer/paper)
I'll preserve ProPhoto profiles and 16bit images into the pdf to avoid sRGB and loose colors gamut.
...
which viewer-print pdf software authorize the profile selection at print stage ? any idea (except Acrobat Pro).

with kind regards

utnik

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2017, 01:58:12 am »
hi nermander

   
  • in the 'color' tab of the .pdf export window select 'printer'

No, don't do that.

It is usually not necessary, because 99% of all regular printers take RGB input. Even the high quality ones.

did you ever try what i suggested? – it leads to a color managed rgb file!

utnik

Nermander

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 02:10:27 pm »
What PDF version did you export to?


utnik

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 02:23:43 pm »
hi nermander

What PDF version did you export to?

it should work with .pdf/x-3 and with the non-x variants. of course it doesn't work with .pdf/x-1a…

utnik

Nermander

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 04:06:52 pm »
I think what you though as a "color managed PDF" was a PDF where colors had been converted to CMYK, using the specified profiles.

But, since most printers today are made to accept RGB data (there are few exceptions) this introduces and extra conversion.

First Scribus converts to CMYK, then the printing program will convert back to RGB, and the printer itself will do another conversion to CMYK.

So it is better to let Scribus generate a RGB PDF (where all content is tagged with a correct colorspace) and then let the printer manage the conversion.

The profiles you specify for Scribus are then used only to make Scribus display the colors as they will be printed.

utnik

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 04:56:28 pm »
hi nermander

I think what you though as a "color managed PDF" was a PDF where colors had been converted to CMYK, using the specified profiles.

NO!!! – just try it!
the resulting .pdf file is an rgb file with the colors converted to the color space of the selected rgb profile – and you will see the difference even if you don't have a professional tool to verify colors…

utnik

manufv

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 05:01:03 pm »
thanks nermander, utnik,

I'm ok with your argument, to export a pdf.x3, mode RGB.
can you be more specific about color mngt/export settings ?

then any idea, how to spool it with a capability to specify my icc printer/paper profile?
 

Nermander

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2017, 05:11:37 pm »
NO!!! – just try it!
the resulting .pdf file is an rgb file with the colors converted to the color space of the selected rgb profile – and you will see the difference even if you don't have a professional tool to verify colors…

I don't have Scribus installed on this machine, so I cannot try.

What I have learned in the past is that "for printer" makes a CMYK PDF, and there have been dozens of discussions that the name of the setting is misleading.

utnik

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 05:59:58 pm »
hi manufv

can you be more specific about color mngt/export settings ?

then any idea, how to spool it with a capability to specify my icc printer/paper profile?

first you need to put the profile for the chosen printer/paper combination into the folder listed under 'preferences' → 'general' → 'paths' → 'icc profiles' then scribus should find it.

then you export your .pdf file:
  • in the 'general' tab you select one of the .pdf variants except .pdf/x-1a (as this is strictly cmyk related)
  • under 'colors' select 'printer' and check both boxes labeled 'use color profile' if the images aren't converted to the correct profile before, you need to check 'do not use embedded color profiles' as well.
  • for images the standard rendering intent should be 'perceptual', for solid colors 'relative colorimetric' is good for most cases. (if you have sensible colors in a logo or other ci related items, absolute colorimetric will berequired, and for artwork with seamless transitions between images and solid colors you need the same conversion for the two of them – wich one may vary…)
  • don't forget to select your profile for both groups of colors
  • if your layout contains spot colors, convert them to process colors
What I have learned in the past is that "for printer" makes a CMYK PDF, and there have been dozens of discussions that the name of the setting is misleading.

what i have learned out of those discussions (from one of the scribus devs) is: 'for printer' really means for printer, as long as it is within a color managed workflow…

utnik

manufv

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 07:34:32 pm »

hi folks,

Finally, I've got it.  Here is my finale workflow.
Here is my workflow :
1) prepare images into Lightroom (LR) which is working mode RGB, profile ProPhoto, 16bit
2) export images from LR as working.tif/RGB/ProPhoto embedded ~full size/resolution/no sharpening
3) compose the book in scribus ~color mngt enabled ; my screen is calibrated
4) when done, via scribus.scripter,
4.1) resize/crop working.tif images regarding frames composition and generate/saveas a final.tif image ;
4.2) replace working.tif by final.tif into frames (close scribus)
5) sharpen final.tif image with third tool (Nik Output Sharpener)
6) reload scribus ~ load final.tif image, still RGB/ProPhoto

7) Export pdf for self-printing on my Epson Surecolor P800 (rgb printer, rgb icc profile for my paper)
7.1) General : PDF/X-3 ; (PDF/X-3: individual objects can be present in ICCbased color spaces, including RGB and CMYK objects with embedded ICC profiles.)
7.2) Colour :
-- Output intended : Printer (greyd'out - no modification pdf/x implicit for printer)
-- Convert Spot colour : Uncheck
-- Use Custom rendering : uncheck
-- Solid colour : Use color profile ProPhoto/Perceptual
-- Images :
--- Use colour profile : checked (forced) ;
--- Do not use embedded colour profiles : unchecked (means : Use embedded colour profile)
(After internal check, /ColorSpace /DeviceRGB and pdf's images are ProPhoto profile embedded)

8) Open with Adobe Acrobat Reader

9) Print with options :
Acrobat :
-- General : Real size
-- Advanced : let Printer determine color : Checked  ; (Acrobat pass the profile id / rendering to the driver)
Epson Printer Driver :
-- General : Mode ICM ;
-- Advanced ICM : ICM host (epson driver receive profiles from app (see 'let printer determine color')
-- Advanced : Display all icc profile : Checked
-- Select rendering (perceptual),...
-- Select desired printer/paper icc profile     ;D
================

With that workflow, There is no mode/color treatment between LR until printer driver.
Perfect !

Thanks for your precious advice.
manu

GarryP

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Re: Self Printing Worflow & Color profiles
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 02:17:48 pm »
If this workflow - or something like it - could be generalised and verified then I think it would make a great article for the wiki.

If there was a single article showing what to do in order to get something professionally printed from Scribus then I'm sure it would help a lot of people. Obviously it would need a lot of boxouts explaining differences between certain things but it would be a very useful starting point.

A lot of people - me included - have no idea what all of this colour management, ICC profiles, ICM stuff is really about. Most people don't get stuff professionally printed on a regular basis so why would they know about it? If there was some kind of check-list that people could use to make sure they have done everything they can to ensure something could be properly printed then it might make people a lot more comfortable with using Scribus for that sort of work.

 

palmate