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Author Topic: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK  (Read 155 times)

veronicathecow

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Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« on: November 15, 2017, 12:48:58 am »
Hi, this is my first post here.
I have been watching lots of youtube vids and playing with scribus and have a fair bit of the basics down okay.
It looks like I will be taking on the production of a 44 page magazine for a charity and would like to use scribus for the whole thing (currently it's done with a mix of LibreOffice and scribus)
The output has to be in two formats. A printed edition (sent off to a professional printers with a print run of about 500 magazines) and a downloadable PDF of around 10Mb
If anyone can point me towards some info or make recommendations on the following two points it would be much appreciated.
1. What would be the easiest way to produce the two outputs
2. CMYK, really struggling to get my head around that, anyone point me to some useful videos please? (  I have installed the Acrobat icc files UK based so I believe FOGRA39 is the one to use)
Many thanks, Tony
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 12:52:11 am by veronicathecow »

mnawij

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2017, 01:36:31 am »
Welcome,

Question 1: Same Scribus Document, different .pdf choices on export.
General Tab:
For Print - Compression=Lossless, Compression Quality=Maximum
For Web - Compression=Lossy, Compression Quality=Whichever level keeps you under 10mb requirement
Fonts Tab:
For Print - Outline
For Web - Embed/Subset if the fonts allow
Color Tab:
For Print - Output intended=Printer
For Web - Output intended=Screen/Web
Prepress Tab:
For Print Only, if you have questions on this tab please just ask.

Question 2: I would avoid color management unless your printer specifically asks for it.  It is not usually necessary in this day and age, especially if printed on digital presses these days.

These are just my suggestions, others might add or subtract.

mnawij

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2017, 01:42:36 am »
Hi mnawij, thanks for your reply that is really useful stuff.
Currently our printer asks for CMYK image files but we may be moving to another printer. I thought it was very strange that they could not cope with standard images after all we couldn't be their only client with this issue.
Cheers.

mnawij

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 06:43:24 am »
See if these help with CMYK.

http://www.printernational.org/rgb-versus-cmyk.php
https://youtu.be/9hirYMZ7PQc

Also, always get a printed hard-copy proof before you go to print.  I always work with images in RGB and then save a copy to CMYK to see how the colors shift, sometimes it is quite drastic, other times hardly anything is noticeable.  Which image editor are you using by the way? Gimp currently only works in RGB, though Krita allows for CMYK conversion.  The hard part is that your monitor is probably not color calibrated, you probably will not be seeing the exact colors on the screen either.  FYI: most printers do not like RGB files as they cannot guarantee the potential color shifts between the two color models.

Hope this helps,

mnawij



veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 01:33:53 pm »
Thanks, that's link is helping with the CMYK business. I use GIMP but I will install Krita. I have been checking in case there was an ICC for my monitor. Years ago when I had cataracts in one eye my left vision was red tinted and my right blue bit like 3D glasses, very funky.

utnik

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 04:04:28 pm »
hi veronica

I use GIMP but I will install Krita.

you don't need krita for this. as your magazine will be exported for screen (rgb) and for print (cmyk), you should keep the images in rgb. the export 'for printer' will do the conversion, unless you export as '.pdf/x-3'. (if your print shop requires .pdf/x-3 with everything in cmyk space, you should export as .pdf/x-1a…)

Quote
I have been checking in case there was an ICC for my monitor.

if your work depends on absolute color acuracy, you need a good monitor, and you have to calibrate it.

utnik

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 05:05:59 pm »
Hi utnik, thanks for your reply that is useful to know.
There are various Preferences for ICC profiles. Do you have any suggestions on what I should use for them I.E.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96540170@N02/38381083666/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96540170@N02/37550432855/in/dateposted-public/
Thanks, Tony

Nermander

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 07:26:55 pm »
and a downloadable PDF of around 10Mb

I think this will be your biggest problem. Since Scribus places each glyph separately (or at least used to), PDFs generated from Scribus tend to always end up a lot bigger than you think.

There are workarounds, like running the PDF through Ghostscript to get a smaller PDF, but the PDF you get from Scribus will most likely be a lot bigger than you wish.

This problem is so common it has its own page on the wiki
https://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Reduce_the_size_of_Scribus_generated_PDFs

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 07:40:28 pm »
Hi Nermander, thanks for your reply. That is very useful info re ghost script.
Under External Tool, Postscript interpreter, Name of Executable, = gs
Which I would guess is ghost script so it looked like it's already available.

utnik

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 08:58:32 pm »
hi tony

There are various Preferences for ICC profiles. Do you have any suggestions…
  • 'coated fogra39' might be ok. – but i would ask at the print shop.
  • 'absolute colorimetric' for images is a bit strange. as long as your images are photos, you should usually use 'perceptual'.
  • for solid colors, there are different options. i use mostly 'relative colorimetric' to avoid strange compressions near the edges of the printable color space. but sometimes 'absolute colorimetric' is better (i.e. in case of a color sensible logo). in really rare cases even 'perceptual' could be required to keep matching colors between an image and some graphical elements. (but then you need to know what you're doing anyway…)
utnik

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 10:20:52 pm »
Hi utnik, thanks for your reply. I am making enquires ew Froga39 with printers.
Perceptual, cheers.
Solid colours, okay will have a play.

mnawij

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2017, 12:12:51 am »
Though Utnik is correct about Scribus converting to CMYK, I would recommend looking at the conversion with Krita beforehand, it will save color shift headaches later.  See my attachments for color shifts to get an idea what happens when you convert between the two.  I believe it is better to see the shift before converting to the pdf.

Again, unless the printer request color profiles, I would recommend against using it.  You would have to color calibrate your monitor with a calibration tool, just downloading the icc profile, while improving the screen colors does not make it the same colors that would be printed, especially with any monitor over a year old.  I understand as I am mildly Red/Green color blind so I rely on calibration and color books for accurate colors quite a bit.

mnawij

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 12:27:53 am »
Hi mnawij thanks for your reply.
Yes there is a big difference in those examples, thanks for those.
In Settings, Colour management, Rendering Intent, there are options for 
Simulate Printer on screen
&
Convert all colours to printer space.
If my ICC is set to FOGRAS39 won't this display on my monitor as an approximation of how it prints?
If that works it would save me having to convert each individual jpg to CMYK with that all being done in the save to PDF.
That way can I also produce a PDF for viewing on a screen by re-running PDF production with the RGB instead of CMYK rendering (I need to be able to produce both)
Thanks, Tony

utnik

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 01:53:30 am »
I would recommend looking at the conversion with Krita beforehand, it will save color shift headaches later.…

…unless the printer request color profiles, I would recommend against using it.

here i disagree!
with activated color management, you'll see a simulation of the printer colors on screen. this might not be as accurate as with a hardware calibrated monitor, but it is as accurate as it will be when you work in a cmyk workflow with a tool like krita on the same monitor. but you will have the same dull colors in the .pdf file for screen use. (even the widest cmyk color space is much smaller than srgb…)

Quote
You would have to color calibrate your monitor with a calibration tool…

yes, that's the best! – but there's a wide zone between hardware calibration and just looking, what happens. i have a professionally printed testsheet and the same document as a .pdf file to optically adjust my screen, and i work quite a bit away from any window. with this arrangement i'm set good enough for my needs – at least much better than with deactivated color management…

…there are options for 
Simulate Printer on screen
&
Convert all colours to printer space.
If my ICC is set to FOGRAS39 won't this display on my monitor as an approximation of how it prints?

i think, you got it right!

utnik

veronicathecow

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Re: Advice for Newbie on printing and PDF outputs inc CMYK
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 02:37:47 pm »
Thanks utnik, I will give it a go like that and have a play. So many factors and so many combinations but hopefully with everyones help I can get some good results.
Cheers